Kettlebell Maffetone running to compliment S+S
- Thread starter Lotto
- Start date
- Status
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Club together with a few training partners and it becomes pretty affordable...
Try this on. Instead of thinking one day, reframe to six months, minimum, for a proper heat check. I had to walk, on flat terrain, when I bumped into a mild headwind. Your heart will love you and your KB practice will improve.
Rumsmike
Level 6 Valued Member
I could see this being annoying and challenging. It works well on a bike because I'm displaying my heart rate on my bike computer on the handlebars right in front of my face. I've heard people on this forum mention that you can set an alarm on your watch that correlates with your maximum desired heart rate so when it beeps you back off a bit. Not sure which HR monitor/watch has this feature.
Yes, HR alerts, very helpful initially.
mar2safety
Level 6 Valued Member
I hear you about too many variables. Here's some tips that I have garnered from MAF running for the past year:
- Have your watch (or HR) set to just display your HR, no other information (add a timer if you're going for a length goal, say 60mins)
- Forget your pace, focus only on your HR
- I set an alarm to go off if my HR exceeds a set number
- If my alarm goes off, I walk until my HR comes down below a set HR (ie. alarm goes off at 138, I walk until HR goes below 125)
- Be prepared to walk more than you think
- Be prepared to walk more if your fatigued from other training, or the weather is super hot, or your lacking sleep
- Just for reference my race pace for a half-marathon is usually 4:50/km, this morning I ran 14km MAF and my pace averaged 6:19/km, training like this initially was hard on the ego
mar2safety
Level 6 Valued Member
I have a Garmin 920xt, with a chest HR monitor. I've had two different Garmin models that have alarm features, I think most models have this now. You can set upper and lower alarms if you really want to train in a narrow HR zone.
AndyMcL
Level 5 Valued Member
One thing to add, if you are not used to training like this it will be initially *very* humbling. When I started adhering to lower HR work I had to drastically reduce my speed. Your body pretty quickly adapts, and soon I was going faster at the same heart rate and had a lot more energy for the hard workouts.
Lotto
Level 6 Valued Member
Second MAF run tonight. I tried to chop down on some variables( decaff afternoon coffee anyone??)and intentionally went to a different venue so I could get 'a feel' for my pace.
I took on board the suggestions of setting an audible alarm on my HRM. I opted for 10 above and 10 below my MAF target. Should I narrow or expand this tolerance? I felt good with the audible feature as I wasn't continually looking at my wrist.
The venue I choose was the beach on the harder packed sand as it was the only place I could think of where I could get my HR to remain constant(ish). I did a linear run A to B with no real issues. Only I noticed I was way below my normal pace, so I was constantly thinking if I was getting any benefit? I'll need to head over to MAF website and refresh myself on the theory/benefits.
Run B to A was different. I was running into the wind, to keep my HR in check I had to slow my pace. Now I was definitely thinking I may not be getting any benefit from going so slow?
It let me get a feel for the sort of pace I'm looking at, so a worthwhile exercise.
If anything at the minute I'm thinking I can MAF run with the dog most days as I can't see the pace taking much out of me as opposed to my previous tactics of running hard 2/3 times a week with no other structure.
I was wondering to if my HR was accurate as I have no chest strap. I think I'll try and borrow one first to make accuracy comparisons before purchasing one as they seem expensive.
I took on board the suggestions of setting an audible alarm on my HRM. I opted for 10 above and 10 below my MAF target. Should I narrow or expand this tolerance? I felt good with the audible feature as I wasn't continually looking at my wrist.
The venue I choose was the beach on the harder packed sand as it was the only place I could think of where I could get my HR to remain constant(ish). I did a linear run A to B with no real issues. Only I noticed I was way below my normal pace, so I was constantly thinking if I was getting any benefit? I'll need to head over to MAF website and refresh myself on the theory/benefits.
Run B to A was different. I was running into the wind, to keep my HR in check I had to slow my pace. Now I was definitely thinking I may not be getting any benefit from going so slow?
It let me get a feel for the sort of pace I'm looking at, so a worthwhile exercise.
If anything at the minute I'm thinking I can MAF run with the dog most days as I can't see the pace taking much out of me as opposed to my previous tactics of running hard 2/3 times a week with no other structure.
I was wondering to if my HR was accurate as I have no chest strap. I think I'll try and borrow one first to make accuracy comparisons before purchasing one as they seem expensive.
I did this once. Brought my kettlebells to the lab of an exercise physiologist who had done a V02max test on the stationary bike. For the kettelbell session, I warmed up with a typical S&S warm-up -- goblet squats and halos with 16kg, hip bridge, 3 rounds of 5 each. He took my baseline lactate reading and it was already at 2.6. Since I was just warming up, I was surprised. (In comparison, for my VO2 max test on the bike, my baseline La was .9, and it slowly rose to .9, 1.0, 1.1, 1.7. 2.1 over the course of the first 24 minutes, increasing wattage from 1 to 75, 100, 125, 150, and 175. My HR during that time went from baseline 57 to 153.) So I asked, why is it already up at 2.6? He said, "because you did squats. Squats are very glycolytic." It was then that I realized "Alactic" or "Anti-glycolytic" really wasn't as I imagined it... And later learned that it only means that we limit the amount and durantion of glycolysis, or lactate production, not that we limit our activity so that it doesn't happen at all.
Back to the kettlebell-lactate test session -- I did sets of 10 swings on the minutes for 27 minutes, 1H with 20kg. My HR was 144-170 (the last few sets I pushed the pace to more than OTM), and lactate was between 2.6 and 5.5. So lactate never went as high as it did in the VO2max test on the bike (up to 8.0 at the end; HR 185, watts 300, RER 1.2, VO2 62).
AndyMcL
Level 5 Valued Member
That is some great info! Thank you for sharing.
Regarding some of the lactate/testing stuff:
-In general "Alactic" is indeed a slight misnomer. "Less lactic" would probably be more appropriate (but not as catchy). Lactate happens during the first second of exercise. By 6 seconds of maximal exercise glycolysis is contributing almost as much as the phosphocreatine system (with the note that human bodies are different). Even during low intensity cardio we are producing lactate (it is just getting shuttled very quickly).
-During the first few minutes of any exercise it's not uncommon to get higher lactate values (like after the S+S warm up) because it takes several minutes for the aerobic system to get fully turned on. During this period, even at lower intensities, you are still using a fair amount of glycolysis. When I've done step tests before it's pretty common for the second step to have a lower than the first, despite an increase in wattage.
-You can get a lot of the same benefits from lifting kettlebells you get from traditional aerobic work, but they really are apples and oranges.
-Makes sense that lactate did not get as high. Your bike test was a max, and the kettlebell test seems more like a challenging workout. Most studies I've seen comparing KB and maximal aerobic tests find that heart rate can get close, but there's always a significant difference between VO2 values. Now, maybe if they tested GS athletes that gap would diminish due to the volume and loads they're able to use.
-Link to a cool graphic showing energy supply during a 30s all out bike test. Muscle biopsies were done at 6", 15", and 30" to evaluate energy system usage: Fig. 1: Muscle energy metabolism during intense exercise. | Nature Metabolism
+1 to all that! Totally agree and love your explanations.
"The Quick and the Dead" pages 26-33 goes DEEP into all this, and is a great read!
mar2safety
Level 6 Valued Member
When I first started MAF running I thought the exact same thing, what are the benefits? In 2019, for the first five months I ran around 85% MAF running and 15% intervals/sprints. I ran a half marathon end of May and shaved 5 mins off a previous PR. I attribute the improvement to all that slow running. My race pace sustained pretty even the entire race. It's like my engine was able to sustain that effort for a long time with no drop off. I was able to race fully recovered (no fatigue from over-training) , having put in sufficient volume at approx. 70% of my maxHR.
Benefits I've found (not race related):
- psychologically easier to head out the door for a long run, knowing I'll finish and feel like i could run more
- decreased recovery time, meaning I could run more often
- I'm more likely to tack on a short 4-5km MAF run after a strength training session, knowing they are not physically taxing
Lotto
Level 6 Valued Member
@mar2safety. That is reassuring to hear your experiences. How many MAF runs are you doing per week and for what distance? Have you coupled with S+S or any other StrongFirst program?
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
And lactate only really becomes a problem once we pass our lactate threshold. All of this LED training is a part of expanding this zone. A high aerobic capacity allows is to use the lactate constructively. Ride/run faster for longer before fatigues sets in...
mar2safety
Level 6 Valued Member
I usually run an average of 25km/week, or 100km/month. Some months as high as 150km.
This year I've especially placed even more emphasis on MAF running, probably 90-95% of my training. Hard runs are usually sprints or intervals. Any hard session I start off with 3-4km of MAF running. I'm not competing in any races this year, so less hard runs. A typical training year would be 80/20. Due to the current pandemic, I've been testing the benefits of almost running MAF exclusively.
Long runs I usually set a time goal (ex. 75 mins) and I don't worry about the distance. I've found that focusing on either pace, or distance, doesn't work for me with MAF running. I ONLY focus on my preferred zone (in my case 140 bpm, down to 125 bpm). My longer runs, distance-wise, are in the 10-15km range. Short runs are usually (20-40 mins). Training like this gives me the confidence to run a half-marathon at any time, not breaking my PR, but knowing I've got the endurance nailed down.
This year, from Jan thru May, I was working towards S&S simple timeless and MAF running, plus playing ice hockey. MAF running complements S&S quite well. I could run up to 40 mins after any S&S session. I wouldn't do that every day, but every 2nd or 3rd S&S session. In April and May, my schedule was (Day 1 S&S and Short MAF run, Day 2 S&S only, Day 3 Long MAF run, repeat). This worked very well.
I can't stress enough how much MAF training keeps you fresh. My cardiovascular system always feels great and I finish runs knowing I could probably do the same route twice.
In June I was hitting simple timeless 4 days a week, so I switched to some strength ladders and Q&D. Three times I attempted to run a short MAF run after Q&D and my HR was noticeable higher, and I had to walk a lot more, than compared to running after S&S. Q&D was very draining on my energy as it is 110% explosive. I wouldn't try that again, but I will test out rucking after Q&D instead).
- Status