Bodyweight Pulled forearm from OAPU

[LouFenrir]

Good day everyone,

One year ago, I started training with the Naked Warrior program. I learned the pistol squat in no time, but the OAPU caused me trouble.

I was only at an Elevated OAPU, my hands resting about the height of a standard dinner table. While I was learning that, in parallel with Tom Furman's Armor Of War training, I injured myself on the inside of the forearm, near the elbow. Its been now one year of recovery, and even though its better, I can't seem to get back to my initial strenght without some kind of uncomfort or pain.

To the describe the sensation when this happended the best I can, it was like if my forearm had so much pressure, that everytime that I did a OAPU, the pressure was too high and it caused echoing pain and weakness after the reps. It actually worsen my pull-ups and Deadlift. I couldn't do one without forearm pain. I had to restart to zero.

I've seen physiotherapist (physical therapist?) to give me exercices to strenghent my forearms. They gave wrist curls on both sides, stretches, and planks with two or one arm. I also did some biceps curls, farmers walk, dead hangs, wrist strenghtening.

Its been one year and now I can do more pullups than ever, can do deadlifts, but still can't do OAPU without pain, or uncomfort. Also, my forearm is still sensitive to rough pulls, pushes. If the pressure isntoo much, I will have weakness and pain for 2-3 days.

Does anyone had this kind of experience before? Does someone know any kind of exercice that I am missing that would help be get back my strenght and achieve OAPU? Should I contend myself to do just One arm wall pushups for awhile?

Any recommandations is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your help,
Charles

 

[BenHack]

Sorry to hear about your ongoing elbow pain. I’ve had elbow issues in multiple areas over the last decade so I can certainly sympathise.

2 things that have helped me are prehab exercises from the handstand course at Gymnasticbodies - similar to those shown here
. And also rice bucket work.

Essentially I use these as warmup regardless of the program I’m using and they seem to keep my issues at bay.

I’ve also had success with Geoff Neupert’s P3 protocol, though this is less targeted - it just seems to work for many issues.

Good luck getting it sorted.

Cheers

Ben

 

[HarryBergers]

I'd probably recommend somebody look at your form, because that kind of strain makes me think that force is being put where it shouldn't be, or there isn't enough strength where it needs to be. $0.02(no expert or coach here)

 

[Ege]

Wall push ups seems to be a good idea. Really taking back a lot the intensity and building up very slowly could help. One arm push up is an exercise that someone should approach like he/she approaches KBs … with respect, it challenges the stabilization of your “push muscles” like no other exercise IMHO and that is what makes it valuable.

 

[bluejeff]

I'd probably recommend somebody look at your form, because that kind of strain makes me think that force is being put where it shouldn't be, or there isn't enough strength where it needs to be. $0.02(no expert or coach here)

+1

I had recurring medial elbow pain for years until I fixed some biomechanical issues. This is a quick and not-very-detailed explanation: since the elbow lies between the wrist and shoulder, it must transmit forces to and from those spots. I’ve seen some physios say “elbow problems are rarely elbow problems, they’re usually wrist or shoulder problems.” That’s a oversimplification but you probably get the gist.

Beyond internet self-education sources I am happy to list, I would definitely post a form check. Also, if your physio did not see your OAPU form, they should. Always make sure your physio(s) sees the stuff you’re trying to do. It’s a good idea to film yourself (get angles where it’s easy to see your whole body from different angles) so you can show them if you are injured or you can’t do it in person for some reason.

For self-rehabbing: I had great success with things I learned from David Grey’s “upper body basics” program. It’s not really a strength training program in the traditional sense. It’s more of a “relearn better biomechanics” course. Google David Grey Rehab for more info. He’s typically focused more on the lower body but his upper body stuff helped me a lot.

If it’s a tendon issue, nothing helped me more than controlled eccentric wrist curls.

Happy to give some more sources if needed, but shopping around for a good in person professional who knows what activities you’re trying to do will usually be your best bet.

 

[LouFenrir]

Thank you for all your responses. They are greatly appreciated.

Sorry to hear about your ongoing elbow pain. I’ve had elbow issues in multiple areas over the last decade so I can certainly sympathise.

2 things that have helped me are prehab exercises from the handstand course at Gymnasticbodies - similar to those shown here
. And also rice bucket work.

Essentially I use these as warmup regardless of the program I’m using and they seem to keep my issues at bay.

I’ve also had success with Geoff Neupert’s P3 protocol, though this is less targeted - it just seems to work for many issues.

Good luck getting it sorted.

Cheers

Ben

Your prehab routine is solid. I do a kind of prehab routine like this every time before training. Its the GMB wrist prep + some wrist pushups. I tried rice bucket but didn't see alot of results, but I'll try it again more often for a longer period.

Wall push ups seems to be a good idea. Really taking back a lot the intensity and building up very slowly could help. One arm push up is an exercise that someone should approach like he/she approaches KBs … with respect, it challenges the stabilization of your “push muscles” like no other exercise IMHO and that is what makes it valuable.

Yes, thank you. Since yesterday, I incorporated assisted OAPU with my other hand barely helping me, and it makes the targeted muscle work way better. I will keep doing those. Whats funny also is that when I tried a kind of archer pushups on the floor, it doesn't my hurt my forearm at all. Like others have said, it makes me think maybe its my form after all.

+1

I had recurring medial elbow pain for years until I fixed some biomechanical issues. This is a quick and not-very-detailed explanation: since the elbow lies between the wrist and shoulder, it must transmit forces to and from those spots. I’ve seen some physios say “elbow problems are rarely elbow problems, they’re usually wrist or shoulder problems.” That’s a oversimplification but you probably get the gist.

Beyond internet self-education sources I am happy to list, I would definitely post a form check. Also, if your physio did not see your OAPU form, they should. Always make sure your physio(s) sees the stuff you’re trying to do. It’s a good idea to film yourself (get angles where it’s easy to see your whole body from different angles) so you can show them if you are injured or you can’t do it in person for some reason.

For self-rehabbing: I had great success with things I learned from David Grey’s “upper body basics” program. It’s not really a strength training program in the traditional sense. It’s more of a “relearn better biomechanics” course. Google David Grey Rehab for more info. He’s typically focused more on the lower body but his upper body stuff helped me a lot.

If it’s a tendon issue, nothing helped me more than controlled eccentric wrist curls.

Happy to give some more sources if needed, but shopping around for a good in person professional who knows what activities you’re trying to do will usually be your best bet.

I'd probably recommend somebody look at your form, because that kind of strain makes me think that force is being put where it shouldn't be, or there isn't enough strength where it needs to be. $0.02(no expert or coach here)

This will be a single response for both of you. Thanks alot for your recommandations, and the more I think about it, the more I think it has something to do with my form. I also have heard from my physical therapist that forearm pain is most probably a symptom of others causes in the shoulder or wrist. She actually prescribed me some shoulder exercices. Althought, since they were super easy, it didn't seem to improve my condition by a noticieable difference. What helped though, are military pushups, pseudo planche pushups, and alterning planks on 1 arm. But its hard to know when exactly a small pain/uncomfort is normal and I push through, and when the pain is not normal and training should be stopped.

I will try to post my form in the next days, but until that, I will try to explain my understanding of the proper form of the OAPU, and if I am mistaken, if you want, you can correct my ignorance, it would be greatly appreciated :

- In position, hands almost centered in front of you, a little bit on the side of the arm you use to push.
- Fingers of the hand are a bit facing the outside, not the inside.
- Glutes are activated and pulled front, abs are squeezed hard, tension all over the body
- A little tortion of the chest when going down. When you get up, you don't only push, but also tortion your shoulder/chest back up to initial position
- Shoulders are not shrugged, and activated ( that is where it is confusing for me... How should I think of the position of the shoulder in the execution?)
- Arms are close to the body


Again, thank you all for your responses
Have a great day

 

[bluejeff]

Shoulders are not shrugged, and activated ( that is where it is confusing for me... How should I think of the position of the shoulder in the execution?)

While we await a form check, my running bet is that there is an issue with the way the shoulders are being "activated." I would think less about corkscrewing the arm or whatever and think more about just pushing into the floor.

You can try this:
Do this both on two arms AND on one arm. Practice on two arms, on the floor or wall, before trying one arm.

Get set in your plank. Spread your fingers comfortably, and see if you can press your entire palm flat to the floor AND straighten your elbows without anything weird going on at the shoulder. For this, don't worry about whole body tension at this point; just focus on flat palms, straight elbows, and a loose neck. You should be able to move your head around easily.

A note about the palms of the hand: There are two main points you ought to maintain contact through: the heel of the palm (the "pisiform") and the spot just below you index finger (this is like the big ball of your foot, but for your palm).

Try a couple slow and controlled pushups. When you get to the bottom, with bent arms, and you begin to push back up, focus the pressure on that spot below your index finger. Keep the palms flat; do your best not to let the palm come up and make a "cupping" shape. Keep your neck loose. When you push up, don't think about anything except a loose neck, and pushing through that point on your palm. Just let the shoulders do whatever. The goal here is to get your body to use its pushing muscles to push. If a move is hard, it will tighten other things to try and accomplish the task. If other things are tightening in a way not-congruent with pushing, you might end up with issues.

If that's too much to think about in a pushup on the floor, do it on the wall, but your palms have to be flat. You want the move to feel "comfortable," even if it is difficult, if that makes sense.


The reasoning behind this is that we need internal rotation to push. All your pushing muscles are internal rotators. If you are aggresively twisting the shoulder externally, you are twisting the humerus in the opposite direction your forearm wants to twist when you push. That might be what is aggravating things during a pushup.

Here's some more info:

 

[Bauer]

While we await a form check, my running bet is that there is an issue with the way the shoulders are being "activated." I would think less about corkscrewing the arm or whatever and think more about just pushing into the floor.

You can try this:
Do this both on two arms AND on one arm. Practice on two arms, on the floor or wall, before trying one arm.

Get set in your plank. Spread your fingers comfortably, and see if you can press your entire palm flat to the floor AND straighten your elbows without anything weird going on at the shoulder. For this, don't worry about whole body tension at this point; just focus on flat palms, straight elbows, and a loose neck. You should be able to move your head around easily.

A note about the palms of the hand: There are two main points you ought to maintain contact through: the heel of the palm (the "pisiform") and the spot just below you index finger (this is like the big ball of your foot, but for your palm).

Try a couple slow and controlled pushups. When you get to the bottom, with bent arms, and you begin to push back up, focus the pressure on that spot below your index finger. Keep the palms flat; do your best not to let the palm come up and make a "cupping" shape. Keep your neck loose. When you push up, don't think about anything except a loose neck, and pushing through that point on your palm. Just let the shoulders do whatever. The goal here is to get your body to use its pushing muscles to push. If a move is hard, it will tighten other things to try and accomplish the task. If other things are tightening in a way not-congruent with pushing, you might end up with issues.

If that's too much to think about in a pushup on the floor, do it on the wall, but your palms have to be flat. You want the move to feel "comfortable," even if it is difficult, if that makes sense.


The reasoning behind this is that we need internal rotation to push. All your pushing muscles are internal rotators. If you are aggresively twisting the shoulder externally, you are twisting the humerus in the opposite direction your forearm wants to twist when you push. That might be what is aggravating things during a pushup.

Here's some more info:

Very interesting.
What about external rotation on the way up, the way it is taught in Naked Warrior?

 

[bluejeff]

Very interesting.
What about external rotation on the way up, the way it is taught in Naked Warrior?

Yeah it seems to go against what we've been taught for a while now. I think the external rotation stuff comes from an intent to reduce chance of shoulder injury via impingement or what not. It's true that external rotation can help a lot of people, but my non-professional gut instinct says that impingement has less to do with internal rotation and more to do with scapulae that don't move well.

As to medial elbow issues (which is my understanding of what's going on with the OP, to me it's easy to see that if you try and keep your humerus in ER the whole time, there will be a point where the forearm is twisting in such a way where those tissues are getting stretched more. With the arm at the side, bend the elbow to 90 degrees and then externally rotate the humerus. It's almost guaranteed your fingers pointed away from your midline. Now to keep the rotation at the humerus AND point the fingers forward at all, you ought to see what I mean.

If you stand with your arms at your side and just raise one or both of them ovehead, you might notice that the humerus naturally turns a certain way at different angles.



I would say that engaging the external rotators is different than trying to remain in external rotation throughout the movement. It doesn't seem like the humerus naturally stays externally rotated through the range of flexion required for an anterior press. Personally, I stopped cuing any intentional external rotation in everything and just focus on pushing/pulling through the movement ("pushing through the floor"), and everything works better, for me. Given that everyone's biomechanics will be a little different, some people need more or less of something different.

Image from this article:

What You Need To Know To Fix Shoulders: Scapulohumeral Rhythm

www.conorharris.com

 

[Bauer]

I would say that engaging the external rotators is different than trying to remain in external rotation throughout the movement.

Thanks.

Thinking about it, it seems to become all tangled up because there are three joints involved (shoulder, elbow, wrist), and during some parts of the movement the direction might be towards internal or external rotation without necessarily meaning that the shoulders "land" there.

Pushing the point below the index finger down seems to ensure, that you have a stable base and that you internal rotators are activated. For pushing up, I think, you then need to a more externally rotated shoulder position. Pushing down that spot ensures that you don't compensate here by rotating the wrist and the elbow.

Back when I followed Kelly Starret he often talked about creating "torque", e.g. by squatting with feet pointed forward and then externally rotating against that to create more torque and thus pushing power.
--

So for me, this might be worth a shot. Anecdotally I have remedied almost all my issues with LCCJS by focusing on externally rotating my shoulder more (leading to "down and back" positioning in the rack and an "open shoulder" in the lockout). However, I seem to avoid internal rotation in swings and cleans (during the hike), so I might have a mobility issue there, complicating my pushups.

 

[bluejeff]

For pushing up, I think, you then need to a more externally rotated shoulder position. Pushing down that spot ensures that you don't compensate here by rotating the wrist and the elbow.

By “pushing up” do you mean like in an overhead press? If so that tracks with what I’ve found.

Back when I followed Kelly Starret he often talked about creating "torque", e.g. by squatting with feet pointed forward and then externally rotating against that to create more torque and thus pushing power.

He contributed a huge amount to PT and what i guess you could call “self maintenance.” He got the average athlete interested in learning about their body. For that I give him a lot of credit. I do however think the whole “external rotation torque” thing has kind of been taken to excess. My squats feel terrible if I do that. They feel better if I just push down into the floor. Equal and opposite reaction and all that. Additionally you have to have IR at 90° hip flexion. If you aggressively externally rotate your hips, the body might find it through the lower back…. I could talk about how locking things in ER keeps those muscles shortened, and we know a lengthened muscle produces more force….But that’s a topic for it’s own thread.

Anecdotally I have remedied almost all my issues with LCCJS by focusing on externally rotating my shoulder more (leading to "down and back" positioning in the rack and an "open shoulder" in the lockout). However, I seem to avoid internal rotation in swings and cleans (during the hike), so I might have a mobility issue there, complicating my pushups.

Yeah it can be really complex. If I had any advice for anyone about any movement, it would be “do it in a way that feels good for you.”

When it comes to things like one arm push-ups, there’s a high degree of technicality. I think there’s a discussion to had (happy to make another thread if needed) about the differences between technique and natural movement, and when the former makes the latter better or worse.

 

[LouFenrir]

Hello everyone,

Sorry for the late reply. I wasn't too organized last few days, but I managed to tape my form and here it is.

If you want better/specific angles, let me know and I'll record it again. You guys have been of great help so far and I appreciate it.

I'm getting better since I started doing wrist curls everyday in the morning 4 sets of 20 to 38 with a 15lbs dumbbell. On my training days, I grip squeeze with a grip strenghtener, 3 sets of 8 to 10.

On my off days, that when I focus on my oapu. I start with one arm side planks, 3 sets of 3 reps ( 1 rep is 10 seconds ). Then, I do oapu half reps for 3 sets of 10-15 on a high bar. Or, I start my sets with my other arm assisting me far away, and when I feel the movement good, I remove it, and manage to do 6-8 nicely.

I'll keep doing that until I feel I can lower myself safely, and no pain. I've also took a visit to a kinesiologist, who will probably make me a specific program for it.

I would love any further recommandations! Have a nice day
Charles

 

[LouFenrir]

Not sure the video was posted, here it is.

 

[John K]

Not sure the video was posted, here it is.

You will need to upload it to a video hosting website and post the link here. You cannot upload a video directly here.

 

[LouFenrir]

You will need to upload it to a video hosting website and post the link here. You cannot upload a video directly here.

I see... It has seem to me to load when I uploaded it with the "Attach files" button, but I didn't know that. I uploaded it to youtube now. Heres the link :

StrongFirst Pulled Forearm OAPU Form

youtube.com

Thanks for telling me.

Hello everyone,

Sorry for the late reply. I wasn't too organized last few days, but I managed to tape my form and here it is.

If you want better/specific angles, let me know and I'll record it again. You guys have been of great help so far and I appreciate it.

I'm getting better since I started doing wrist curls everyday in the morning 4 sets of 20 to 38 with a 15lbs dumbbell. On my training days, I grip squeeze with a grip strenghtener, 3 sets of 8 to 10.

On my off days, that when I focus on my oapu. I start with one arm side planks, 3 sets of 3 reps ( 1 rep is 10 seconds ). Then, I do oapu half reps for 3 sets of 10-15 on a high bar. Or, I start my sets with my other arm assisting me far away, and when I feel the movement good, I remove it, and manage to do 6-8 nicely.

I'll keep doing that until I feel I can lower myself safely, and no pain. I've also took a visit to a kinesiologist, who will probably make me a specific program for it.

I would love any further recommandations! Have a nice day
Charles

 

[LouFenrir]

Hi everyone, its been a while.
Just to check if anyone has evaluate my form from my video yet?

Also, I've watched some videos of Karen Smith explaining how to do a OAPU, and in most of her videos, she explains to corkscrew the shoulder. But, since english is not my first language, I'm not sure to understand what she means. I don't want to do the wrong technique. For an update, after watching her and keeping with a more solid rehab routine, I manage to do proper OAPU on something elevated about 3 feet off the ground for 3-5 reps. I'm happy i'm finally making progress.

Have a great day,
Charles

 

[Anna C]

Hi @LouFenrir, I'll offer some feedback.

Overall looks pretty good.

I will try to explain my understanding of the proper form of the OAPU, and if I am mistaken, if you want, you can correct my ignorance, it would be greatly appreciated :

- In position, hands almost centered in front of you, a little bit on the side of the arm you use to push.
- Fingers of the hand are a bit facing the outside, not the inside.
- Glutes are activated and pulled front, abs are squeezed hard, tension all over the body
- A little tortion of the chest when going down. When you get up, you don't only push, but also tortion your shoulder/chest back up to initial position
- Shoulders are not shrugged, and activated ( that is where it is confusing for me... How should I think of the position of the shoulder in the execution?)
- Arms are close to the body

Your understanding looks correct to me.

On the shoulder position, you want as strong as possible of a connection to the body, and this is primarily accomplished by the lats. So, shoulder will be pulled down towards hip and away from ear. As for the corkscrew, you can get that by turning your right hand clockwise or your left hand counterclockwise without changing its actual placement on the ground or bar or other surface. It's a lot like how you can corkscrew the feet into the floor with an outward turn which can help the squat. With the OAPU, this corkscrew action helps the lats connect the arm to the body.

As for your form, SFB standards would have you get into more of a hollow position by tucking the pelvis under more. You can use a power breath to get into this tight hollow position before your rep or set. Here are some of my OAPU practice sessions when I was going for re-cert: singles, plank holds, elevated 5x5s, planks and hollow hold press.

Also, you don't have to go quite so deep with your chest to the deck. Go just to where your upper arm is parallel to the floor, or angle of what the floor would be, if you are elevated. Keep the whole body aligned, so the head is not going down more than the hips.

Try to keep your elbow closer to your torso. The corkscrew and tighter lats may help with this. Your forearm angle looks about right -- vertical-ish throughout, so I think your hand placement relative to your body is good.

These are all fine-tuning tips. I don't see anything in your current form that to me would clearly indicate something that would cause the pain issues, but my knowledge in the pain and rehab area is limited.

Anyway, hope that helps... may your training brings you pain-free strength!

 

[Bauer]

Also, you don't have to go quite so deep with your chest to the deck. Go just to where your upper arm is parallel to the floor, or angle of what the floor would be, if you are elevated. Keep the whole body aligned, so the head is not going down more than the hips.

That is interesting to me. I have started working on my OAP for the first time, GTGing it. I am doing full ROM OAP, so sternum touching the elevation. Don't you think that full ROM would help to build some more strength for the heavier variations? Or does this slow progress down, taking more time and not being specific enough?


@LouFenrir : As you can read above, I am a beginner on this journey. However, here are my observations: You do your repetitions pretty fast one after another. If you really do them hardstyle with lots of feed forward tension, I think it might be beneficial to have short micro pauses in the lockout and pratice each rep as a single. Not necessariliy on every set, but here and there.

I have just bought the StrongFirst Bodyweight Fundamentals course on sale and found the 18 minute instruction on the OAP and accompanying drills quite helpful.

 

[Anna C]

That is interesting to me. I have started working on my OAP for the first time, GTGing it. I am doing full ROM OAP, so sternum touching the elevation. Don't you think that full ROM would help to build some more strength for the heavier variations? Or does this slow progress down, taking more time and not being specific enough?

I checked the SFB manual on this. In the instruction portion, "Descend until the tip of the elbow of the working arm is above the top of the shoulder or deeper, pause while staying tight, then push back up." In the Standard, the Condition is the same. "The student will assume the one-arm/one-leg plank and lower {his} torso under control on one arm until the tip of the elbow of the working arm is above the top of the shoulder and press back up." Most of the training drills have you hovering the ground. For 2H: "brushing the deck with your shirt on the bottom of each push-up". But there is a note: as a regression, or in case the shoulders demand it, the range of motion may be limited in this and other pushup variations. For example, you may descent do a ball placed underneath your sternum."

I do not know if a full ROM would help build more strength for heavier variations. Seems to me that it's additional risk to the shoulder without a lot of additional strength benefit or carry over. Perhaps someone with more anatomical expertise could answer. I'll see if @Karen Smith can chime in on this topic and thread.

I guess in a slight correction to what I said earlier, you would want to go just a bit deeper than the upper arm being parallel to the ground -- at least until the tip of the elbow is above the top of the shoulder.

Great articles:

One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pushup | StrongFirst

Done well, the push-up will give great strength gains and can be done anywhere at any time. But first, we need to make sure you can do one great repetition.

www.strongfirst.com

Four Progressions to Conquer the One-Arm Pushup | StrongFirst

When I first attended the StrongFirst Bodyweight (SFB) Certification in 2016, I failed the one-arm pushup test that weekend. Having recently passed the SFG Level I Certification seven months prior, I was new to StrongFirst methods and strength training and still in the early stages of becoming...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Bauer]

I checked the SFB manual on this. In the instruction portion, "Descend until the tip of the elbow of the working arm is above the top of the shoulder or deeper, pause while staying tight, then push back up." In the Standard, the Condition is the same. "The student will assume the one-arm/one-leg plank and lower {his} torso under control on one arm until the tip of the elbow of the working arm is above the top of the shoulder and press back up." Most of the training drills have you hovering the ground. For 2H: "brushing the deck with your shirt on the bottom of each push-up". But there is a note: as a regression, or in case the shoulders demand it, the range of motion may be limited in this and other pushup variations. For example, you may descent do a ball placed underneath your sternum."

I do not know if a full ROM would help build more strength for heavier variations. Seems to me that it's additional risk to the shoulder without a lot of additional strength benefit or carry over. Perhaps someone with more anatomical expertise could answer. I'll see if @Karen Smith can chime in on this topic and thread.

I guess in a slight correction to what I said earlier, you would want to go just a bit deeper than the upper arm being parallel to the ground -- at least until the tip of the elbow is above the top of the shoulder.

Great articles:

One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pushup | StrongFirst

Done well, the push-up will give great strength gains and can be done anywhere at any time. But first, we need to make sure you can do one great repetition.

www.strongfirst.com

Four Progressions to Conquer the One-Arm Pushup | StrongFirst

When I first attended the StrongFirst Bodyweight (SFB) Certification in 2016, I failed the one-arm pushup test that weekend. Having recently passed the SFG Level I Certification seven months prior, I was new to StrongFirst methods and strength training and still in the early stages of becoming...

www.strongfirst.com

Thanks a lot, Anna! Highly appreciated.

PS: I would add this one to the list of helpful articles on the topic:

Get a Heavier Military Press With the One-arm One-leg Push-up | StrongFirst

Putting your kettlebells aside and conquering the one-arm one-leg push-up will be one of the best things you do in your quest for a heavier military press.

www.strongfirst.com