all posts post new thread

Kettlebell ROP support group

I thought up a slight variant of RoP the other day:
  • Warm up with goblet squats and halos
  • Five, 10-minute clusters
  • Each cluster starts with one set of swings or snatches:
    • Heavy day: All-out set, "fight to the finish"
    • Medium day: "To a comfortable stop"
    • Light day: To 50-60% of max reps; practice
  • After the swing/snatch set, do C&P ladders for the remainder of the 10 minutes:
    • Heavy day: Climb to highest rung you can achieve. Keep the ladder going the entire time, e.g. 1,2,3,4,1,2,3 (time's up)
    • Medium day: Stop one rung short, e.g. 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1 (time's up)
    • Light day: Stop two rungs short, e.g. 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1 (time's up)
    • Rest between rungs and/or ladders; density will increase naturally
  • For strength emphasis, work in a heavier bell on the lower rungs, starting with singles, e.g. 1 @ 24kg, 2,3,4 @ 20kg, 1 @ 24kg, 2,3,4 @ 20kg, etc.; cycle repeats when 1,2,3 x 5 is with the heavier bell.
  • For conditioning emphasis, after working up to 3-, 4-, and 5-rung ladders with a given bell, try do do more volume per ladder (e.g. rest less).
 
Sean M said:
I thought up a slight variant of RoP the other day:
  • Warm up with goblet squats and halos
  • Five, 10-minute clusters
  • Each cluster starts with one set of swings or snatches:
    • Heavy day: All-out set, "fight to the finish"
    • Medium day: "To a comfortable stop"
    • Light day: To 50-60% of max reps; practice
  • After the swing/snatch set, do C&P ladders for the remainder of the 10 minutes:
    • Heavy day: Climb to highest rung you can achieve. Keep the ladder going the entire time, e.g. 1,2,3,4,1,2,3 (time's up)
    • Medium day: Stop one rung short, e.g. 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1 (time's up)
    • Light day: Stop two rungs short, e.g. 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1 (time's up)
    • Rest between rungs and/or ladders; density will increase naturally
  • For strength emphasis, work in a heavier bell on the lower rungs, starting with singles, e.g. 1 @ 24kg, 2,3,4 @ 20kg, 1 @ 24kg, 2,3,4 @ 20kg, etc.; cycle repeats when 1,2,3 x 5 is with the heavier bell.
  • For conditioning emphasis, after working up to 3-, 4-, and 5-rung ladders with a given bell, try do do more volume per ladder (e.g. rest less).
Click to expand...

It's good..

My only recommendation is extend the duration to 15- 20 minutes to allow you to accumulate more volume
 
I am going to cut out the swings on the medium and heavy days because I do hard muay thai sessions on the days i am not practicing with the kettlebell. The volume and intensity of the swings is a lot on my hips combined with muay thai. Also the muay thai provides plenty of conditioning. My main goal is to be better at martial arts not so much the end goal of ROP. I do like the strength and hypertrophy associated with ROP and it works well with having only a 16 and 24kg kb at home.

I will do the S & S warm up as my warm up for this.
i will leave in the easy snatches as well.
So the actual practice will consist only of C & P, easy day snatches and pull ups.

If anyone has any pointers i am open to hearing them.
 
Slatersan said:
I am going to cut out the swings on the medium and heavy days because I do hard muay thai sessions on the days i am not practicing with the kettlebell. The volume and intensity of the swings is a lot on my hips combined with muay thai. Also the muay thai provides plenty of conditioning. My main goal is to be better at martial arts not so much the end goal of ROP. I do like the strength and hypertrophy associated with ROP and it works well with having only a 16 and 24kg kb at home.

I will do the S & S warm up as my warm up for this.
i will leave in the easy snatches as well.
So the actual practice will consist only of C & P, easy day snatches and pull ups.

If anyone has any pointers i am open to hearing them.
Click to expand...

A lot of people do just the press part of the program. It’s not true ROP but it does not matter if it serves one well. Also you would be more in position to not overtrain in the last weeks of the plan.
 
@Molson ....... Just my humble thoughts here but if overtraining is a concern on the ROP then there are two options I have done over the years. First, skip the variety days. Pavel writes "feel free to skip variety days" in the book. Additionally, pull ups are "optional" in the ROP. I remember my first time through I didn't do them and made great progress. Just suggestions.
 
Molson said:
A lot of people do just the press part of the program. It’s not true ROP but it does not matter if it serves one well. Also you would be more in position to not overtrain in the last weeks of the plan.
Click to expand...
The swings become so tough later in the program due to how much volume the ladders provide.

It'd be nice to have an updated conditioning protocol to go with the pressing.
 
John Grahill said:
@Molson ....... Just my humble thoughts here but if overtraining is a concern on the ROP then there are two options I have done over the years. First, skip the variety days. Pavel writes "feel free to skip variety days" in the book. Additionally, pull ups are "optional" in the ROP. I remember my first time through I didn't do them and made great progress. Just suggestions.
Click to expand...
Adam R Mundorf said:
The swings become so tough later in the program due to how much volume the ladders provide.

It'd be nice to have an updated conditioning protocol to go with the pressing.
Click to expand...

ROP can be so challenging or forgiving depending on what you do with optional stuff.

Killer version:
- 2 variety days
- pull ups between presses
- going all out with continuous swings, and rolling 2x6 on the dice often
- short pauses between ladders

Light:
- no variety
- no pull ups
- Lifting only when passed the talk test

Extra light:
- pressing part only

It’s really important to assess your RM well. you could probably sustain the most depending option with 8-10RM C&P, but not with 4-5RM.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
The swings become so tough later in the program due to how much volume the ladders provide.

It'd be nice to have an updated conditioning protocol to go with the pressing.
Click to expand...
@Adam R Mundorf, try a few Q&D style swings before presses. Start with one set, and I would say that about 30 swings would be right for most people, maybe 40 total. And then press, and then you're done.

-S-
 
I've decided to take this week to prepare to begin the Rop, is this a good approach?
the frequency daily:
-Gtg pullups (weighted)
-Gtg clean and press Singles
-two handed swings (10 sets of 7 with a 40kg)
-low rep sandbag get down-getups for core ( 2-3 each side)

what do you think? any opinions welcome.
 
Steve Freides said:
I may be the Rite of Passage's biggest fan and I feel the need to comment on both the above.

First, @pet',

I think the ROP is best thought of as being based on the good', old-fashioned idea of one really hard day per week. It has more in common with programs that do each lift only once per week than it does with something like S&S. That "one really hard day per week" in the ROP's case is made hard with volume, not weight, but the concept is very much the same, IMO.

The volume in the ROP's final week is unsustainable by most mortals, so I don't think it's a good idea to just divide it up. The consequence would be needing to use a lighter weight, but then you're doing another program. There really isn't any changing the heavy day in the ROP, in my opinion, unless you change to a heavier weight but still keep a substantial volume of lifts and, again, then it's not the ROP. Part of why the heavy day in the ROP works, IMO, is because "to press a lot, you have to press a lot."

@BrianCF,

The ROP is a press peaking program - it will get you to a better press, but it's much too much volume to sustain and one should change to another program when one feels the goal, e.g., a 1/2 bw 1-arm press on both side for a single, has been achieved.

I weigh 68 kg, about 150 lbs., and I'm currently doing a version of the ROP I've done before, which is two passes through, the first with 20 kg and the second with 24 kg. For the 20 kg pass, I go much more quickly than the 13 weeks the program takes "by the book". I am, as mentioned here before, using a heavier weight for some of my singles and doubles as I feel I can, so I know already I can press a 24 kg for a single, and I expect to be able to press a 28 kg for a single when I'm done the 20 kg current cycle. And I expect to be able to press a 32 kg when I'm done the 24 kg cycle, and then I'll be done with high volume pressing for a long time. And I'm 65 years old, and I'm no "mutant," just an ex-runner with a crappy bench press, a crappy squat, and a decent deadlift for an old, skinny guy.

75 reps each side for a 51-year-old man isn't a recipe for any kind of bad thing, but it's a thing to be worked up to no more than once every 3 months because that's how long the program takes, and after you've gotten your 1/2 bw press or achieved whatever else you want to from it, put it away. I believe this is my 3rd time through the ROP over the past 10 years, and that seems about right to me.

NB: I don't handle my ballistics as prescribed in the ROP but I still do them, but along A+A/S&S/Q&D lines, and on ROP heavy day, I do nothing but a short warmup, all those presses, and take a nap. I work on the weekends but have Monday's off, so Monday is my ROP heavy day.

Timing - I have been using a very simple formula to make sure I get enough rest between rungs and between ladders. Here it is:

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
01:00 - 2 reps L/R
03:00 - 3 reps L/R

and you rest as many minutes as were in your last rung at a minimum, more if you need. So if I'm doing ladders to 3, the next ladder would start at 06:00, 07:00, or 08:00, depending on how I felt. Applying the formula to ladders to 4

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
01:00 - 2 reps L/R
03:00 - 3 reps L/R
06:00 - 4 reps L/R

rest until at least 10:00. I just did 5 x 1-2-3-4, so each ladder started on the 10 minutes. The week before, my ladders to 4 started on the 12 minutes because I needed more rest

When I do ladder to 5 it will be

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
01:00 - 2 reps L/R
03:00 - 3 reps L/R
06:00 - 4 reps L/R
10:00 - 5 reps L/R

and start the next ladder at 15:00 or longer if need be

A session of 5 x 1-2-3-4 takes 44 minutes. A session of 5 x 1-2-3-4-5 takes 1 hour and 15 minutes

Rest periods explained - formula is: your next start time is your previous start time plus the number of minutes equal to the rep count you just did.

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
add 1 min to 00:00 and start next rung at 01:00

01:00 - 2 reps L/R
add 2 min to 01:00 and start next rung at 03:00

03:00 - 3 reps L/R
add 3 min to 03:00 and start next rung at 06:00

06:00 - 4 reps L/R
add 4 min to 06:00 and start next run at 10:00

10:00 - 5 reps L/R
add 5 min to 10:00 and start next ladder no sooner than 15:00

The above formula for determining rest periods is something I consider middle-of-the-road, not a new ladder every half hour, but also enough rest to allow you to feel well-rested before attempting the next set.

I hope this is helpful to someone's practice of the ROP. If you have questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

-S-
Click to expand...
@Steve Freides thanks for posting your rest periods, helpful. I've been doing the ladders up to four reps going at 0:00, 1:30, 4:00, 7:30, start next ladder at 12:00. I'm going to hit four reps on my fifth ladder today and start adding rung 5 next week. I had thought about just having no rest between rungs 1 and 2 in the ladder to five, but think I'll adopt your model. I'll also feel fine about taking a little longer if needed between ladders and going 'no sooner' than 15:00 - I find toward the end my hands want a break as much if not more than my muscles and nervous system.

Do you do anything while waiting for 15:00, or truly rest? Thanks
 
Last edited:
Michael Perry said:
@Steve Freides thanks for posting your rest periods, helpful. I've been doing the ladders up to four reps going at 0:00, 1:30, 4:00, 7:30, start next ladder at 12:00. I'm going to hit four reps on my fifth ladder today and start adding rung 5 next week. I had thought about just having no rest between rungs 1 and 2 in the ladder to five, but think I'll adopt your model. I'll also feel fine about taking a little longer if needed between ladders and going 'no sooner' than 15:00 - I find toward the end my hands want a break as much if not more than my muscles and nervous system.

Do you do anything while waiting for 15:00, or truly rest? Thanks
Click to expand...
Rereading your post, sounds like your just pressing in your ladders, correct? I'm doing pullup ladders within as well.
 
Steve Freides said:
@Adam R Mundorf, try a few Q&D style swings before presses. Start with one set, and I would say that about 30 swings would be right for most people, maybe 40 total. And then press, and then you're done.

-S-
Click to expand...
Steve, is this with a clean for every rep of press, or not? I'm asking because I'm wondering if you're factoring in additional hinges from the clean to the recommendation of only 30-40 swings.

Do you think 40 swings 3x per week is enough to progress? Or even just maintain?
 
@Dayz, the ROP press program is tiring - swings before can take away from the press. Better too few than too many. For me, the purpose would be to maintain the swing and reap the benefits of Q&D style training, and progress the press, and not really make a lot of progress on the swing.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
I may be the Rite of Passage's biggest fan and I feel the need to comment on both the above.

First, @pet',

I think the ROP is best thought of as being based on the good', old-fashioned idea of one really hard day per week. It has more in common with programs that do each lift only once per week than it does with something like S&S. That "one really hard day per week" in the ROP's case is made hard with volume, not weight, but the concept is very much the same, IMO.

The volume in the ROP's final week is unsustainable by most mortals, so I don't think it's a good idea to just divide it up. The consequence would be needing to use a lighter weight, but then you're doing another program. There really isn't any changing the heavy day in the ROP, in my opinion, unless you change to a heavier weight but still keep a substantial volume of lifts and, again, then it's not the ROP. Part of why the heavy day in the ROP works, IMO, is because "to press a lot, you have to press a lot."

@BrianCF,

The ROP is a press peaking program - it will get you to a better press, but it's much too much volume to sustain and one should change to another program when one feels the goal, e.g., a 1/2 bw 1-arm press on both side for a single, has been achieved.

I weigh 68 kg, about 150 lbs., and I'm currently doing a version of the ROP I've done before, which is two passes through, the first with 20 kg and the second with 24 kg. For the 20 kg pass, I go much more quickly than the 13 weeks the program takes "by the book". I am, as mentioned here before, using a heavier weight for some of my singles and doubles as I feel I can, so I know already I can press a 24 kg for a single, and I expect to be able to press a 28 kg for a single when I'm done the 20 kg current cycle. And I expect to be able to press a 32 kg when I'm done the 24 kg cycle, and then I'll be done with high volume pressing for a long time. And I'm 65 years old, and I'm no "mutant," just an ex-runner with a crappy bench press, a crappy squat, and a decent deadlift for an old, skinny guy.

75 reps each side for a 51-year-old man isn't a recipe for any kind of bad thing, but it's a thing to be worked up to no more than once every 3 months because that's how long the program takes, and after you've gotten your 1/2 bw press or achieved whatever else you want to from it, put it away. I believe this is my 3rd time through the ROP over the past 10 years, and that seems about right to me.

NB: I don't handle my ballistics as prescribed in the ROP but I still do them, but along A+A/S&S/Q&D lines, and on ROP heavy day, I do nothing but a short warmup, all those presses, and take a nap. I work on the weekends but have Monday's off, so Monday is my ROP heavy day.

Timing - I have been using a very simple formula to make sure I get enough rest between rungs and between ladders. Here it is:

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
01:00 - 2 reps L/R
03:00 - 3 reps L/R

and you rest as many minutes as were in your last rung at a minimum, more if you need. So if I'm doing ladders to 3, the next ladder would start at 06:00, 07:00, or 08:00, depending on how I felt. Applying the formula to ladders to 4

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
01:00 - 2 reps L/R
03:00 - 3 reps L/R
06:00 - 4 reps L/R

rest until at least 10:00. I just did 5 x 1-2-3-4, so each ladder started on the 10 minutes. The week before, my ladders to 4 started on the 12 minutes because I needed more rest

When I do ladder to 5 it will be

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
01:00 - 2 reps L/R
03:00 - 3 reps L/R
06:00 - 4 reps L/R
10:00 - 5 reps L/R

and start the next ladder at 15:00 or longer if need be

A session of 5 x 1-2-3-4 takes 44 minutes. A session of 5 x 1-2-3-4-5 takes 1 hour and 15 minutes

Rest periods explained - formula is: your next start time is your previous start time plus the number of minutes equal to the rep count you just did.

00:00 - 1 rep L/R
add 1 min to 00:00 and start next rung at 01:00

01:00 - 2 reps L/R
add 2 min to 01:00 and start next rung at 03:00

03:00 - 3 reps L/R
add 3 min to 03:00 and start next rung at 06:00

06:00 - 4 reps L/R
add 4 min to 06:00 and start next run at 10:00

10:00 - 5 reps L/R
add 5 min to 10:00 and start next ladder no sooner than 15:00

The above formula for determining rest periods is something I consider middle-of-the-road, not a new ladder every half hour, but also enough rest to allow you to feel well-rested before attempting the next set.

I hope this is helpful to someone's practice of the ROP. If you have questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

-S-
Click to expand...
@Steve Freides, Thanks for posting that, funny that I was already doing the exact same thing when I started the ROP 3 weeks ago with the 28kg.

After finishing the S&T press program with the 28 where I was doing 10x10 Swings reloaded (i.e. 3 min rest between sets) with the 40 BEFORE my presses (as I felt a lot more warmed-up afterwards), I figured ROP would be the next step.

I weigh ~67kg (140 lbs in wizard measurements) so it's not going to be an easy task but I'm definitely excited. I also always superset the C&P sets with one-arm KB rows as I'm working out from home now for obvious reasons (without access to a pullup bar).

For the ROP, I am doing swings ala Q&D/S&S after the presses but I was debating dumping the swing part after pressing (at least on the Heavy days). I'm pleasantly surprised you and others here recommend it. The Heavy days get really long and tough and I think my rest periods will only increase as the weeks go by.
Steve Freides said:
@Dayz, the ROP press program is tiring - swings before can take away from the press. Better too few than too many. For me, the purpose would be to maintain the swing and reap the benefits of Q&D style training, and progress the press, and not really make a lot of progress on the swing.

-S-
Click to expand...
And agreed 100%, Swings are just the dessert, not the main course of the ROP. I do like your idea of 30-40 Q&D swings before the heavy day presses as I mentioned before, it gets you warmed-up really well.
I might keep the full 10x10 swings on Light days just for maintenance as the ladders consist mostly of presses on that day and not C&P like the other 2 days.

The quarantine sucks but I'm glad I invested in a 28kg and 40kg kettlebells. Have been able to get some great workouts since it started.
 
Hi everyone, first post here just joined this forum, thought this would be a good place to go as I just restarted the ROP.
I got into kettlebells years ago. Never finished the ROP, but jumped into return of the kettlebell because I was used to weightlifting, and figured my body needed the extra load. Got away from kettlebells while running wendlers 5/3/1. I've squatted 335, done trap bar deadlifts with 405x8, benched 285x2 and overhead pressed 155x3. I kept kettlebells in once a week but just doing flows for conditioning. I run a martial arts school for a living and train martial arts a few days a week, balancing strength and martial arts has always been the challenge.
Anyway quarantine, dojo closed, gym closed, time to dust off kettlebells. April I just kind of messed around, then May I followed the "lean dry weight" program from this site, with double 28kg. Finished with a rep max of 6 on c&p, and 11 on front squats (quads could've gone more, but upper back couldn't hold the rack anymore).
With that finished, gyms still not opened, I made a decision. Since consistency is never guaranteed, and I realized how much I HATE going to the gym(despite a love of strength training) I'm going exclusively kettlebell.
So I'm running ROP until I hit the standards.
Today I hit 5 ladders, 3 rungs of c&p with a 28kg, felt super explosive. Rolled the dice for 6, did 130 swings in 6 mins with the 28. Still waiting on a pullup bar to get here, so later I go to a park and do pullups.
On my variety days, this week for example, I did 5x5 front squats with the 28kg, alternating each set with 1 turkish get up each side with a 32kg, then did 2x5 snatches with a 32kg. 2nd variety day I plan to just do 20-30 mins of "play" with a 16kg.

Question. I have a 32kg, and I ordered a 40kg. Currently sitting at a bodyweight of 207, but I have some fluff on my waist I need to get rid of before jiu jitsu competition opens up. Plan to get to 190/195 for comps. A 40kg won't be double bodyweight, so to hit the standard I know I will need to buy yet another kettlebell, but should I get a 48kg (half my current weight) or a 44kg(weight I plan to get to)?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom