S & S Questions - Links

[Anna C]

@Chris Reed, sounds like good progress. You might get there in 7 weeks, although most people will tell you it doesn't matter much when you get there -- your body is adjusting as fast as it can, and what you're really after is the physical adaptations and capabilities that go along with Simple, not the achievement itself, right? But it's a good goal to set and no harm in looking forward.

What's missing from your description is the timing that you use for your swings, in practice. As long as your get-ups are going well and not causing you any problems, the swing form and the timing is going to be your biggest determinant. As far s the technique, you're welcome to post a video for form check in a new thread. On the timing, most would suggest taking 10 min or more in daily practice for your swings to maximize technique and power, but pushing the pace once every two weeks or so to get used to doing them in the time standard of 5 minutes.

 

[Chris Reed]

@Chris Reed, sounds like good progress. You might get there in 7 weeks, although most people will tell you it doesn't matter much when you get there -- your body is adjusting as fast as it can, and what you're really after is the physical adaptations and capabilities that go along with Simple, not the achievement itself, right? But it's a good goal to set and no harm in looking forward.

What's missing from your description is the timing that you use for your swings, in practice. As long as your get-ups are going well and not causing you any problems, the swing form and the timing is going to be your biggest determinant. As far s the technique, you're welcome to post a video for form check in a new thread. On the timing, most would suggest taking 10 min or more in daily practice for your swings to maximize technique and power, but pushing the pace once every two weeks or so to get used to doing them in the time standard of 5 minutes.

@Anna C , Thank you for the feedback! Yes, as I read your reply I do want to be able to "own" the Simple standard and swing/TGU 32kg bell with the same ease as a 24kg. For practice, I take about 15 min or a little more to complete the swings trying to adhere to the 'can you pass the talk test' before doing the next rep. I think my get ups are fine, but I have not had someone critique me so I could be wrong. I didn't know I could upload a short video for form check; I shall do this in the near future. Thank you again. Chris

 

[Anna C]

For practice, I take about 15 min or a little more to complete the swings trying to adhere to the 'can you pass the talk test' before doing the next rep.

Yes, sounds perfect for daily practice. So that leads to the question of, what happens when you try to do them closer to the time standard? It can be quite a shock to the system if you do it very infrequently or have never done it. In my opionion, the idea that the rest periods naturally decrease and get you to being able to do the 5 minutes with that same approach doesn't really happen. You have to practice (maybe once every couple of weeks) the skill of pushing the pace much harder than you're used to, and NOT passing the talk test between sets, but still having all the swings be good and powerful. So generally, your ability to do this will likely be the determining factor in whether you meet the Simple standard in your desired timeframe.

 

[Nacho]

I was having great success with S&S when I did my goblet squats like this:

Holding the bell by the horns bell up. Only prying on the last rep of 5. No curls. I did it like this because it was convenient to swith to halos and back to goblet squats.

Maybe 6 weeks ago I tried curls at the bottom and I loved them, so I started to pry a bit and do 1-3 curls on every rep. Since then, I havent made any progress on swings and get ups and actually they might even feel a bit harder. I still use the same light bell for these.

Is it possible that this switch has made such a difference? I cant think of anything else...

Edit: What Im thinking is that time under tension has increased in gs’s for sure and Im not as fresh when starting the swings.

 

[Ryan T]

A pro tip from @Sean M's training log was to pull back on the reps and really make those swings alactic. Starting with 5 reps on the min for 20 min. I feel like varying that with some higher density days migh I really felt like I "owned" those swings. It is a game changer, however when you up the density. Keep us informed on your progress and all the best!

 

[Nacho]

A pro tip from @Sean M's training log was to pull back on the reps and really make those swings alactic. Starting with 5 reps on the min for 20 min. I feel like varying that with some higher density days migh I really felt like I "owned" those swings. It is a game changer, however when you up the density. Keep us informed on your progress and all the best!

Thanks for the advice. I will try that!
But as I have given more thought to this thing with my gs’s I really think Im taxing myself too much on those. I think I have turned them to a third main exercise rather than doing them as a mobility warmup. Im really pulling myself down slowly and doing curls on every rep, which I think is quite good but that maybe doesn’t quite fit to S&S for me. I mean I dont want to take my swings/tgu’s any easier just because I worked harder on my gs’s... Maybe doing only goblet squats in this manner would serve a purpose as a light day when Im busy... ?

 

[Ryan T]

Thanks for the advice. I will try that!
But as I have given more thought to this thing with my gs’s I really think Im taxing myself too much on those. I think I have turned them to a third main exercise rather than doing them as a mobility warmup. Im really pulling myself down slowly and doing curls on every rep, which I think is quite good but that maybe doesn’t quite fit to S&S for me. I mean I dont want to take my swings/tgu’s any easier just because I worked harder on my gs’s... Maybe doing only goblet squats in this manner would serve a purpose as a light day when Im busy... ?

That's a great observation! If you search a little more on the forums, there is a thread (or possibly threads) where Pavel indicates that you can eventually ditch the halos and hip bridges but the prying goblet squats must stay as a part of the warm up.

The suggested GS weight is your swing weight. When I moved up to the 32kg, I abondoned the curls. I also wouldn't always use a 32kg for the goblet squat either. If I was going to do heavier GUs or push the density a little, I would ladder down to 20-24kg. I'd do some curls then but not on every rep. Maybe 3 curls the first couple reps of reps for the first 2 sets. I do think it would be cool to hone in on them a little more if you were going to do a variety day that's not strictly focused on S&S practice. I'll still contend that I've gotten more out of 32kg goblet squats than double front squats @20kg.

One other thing that I'll say on the subject is @CMarker has a great experimental 6 week program where swings, GUs and GSs are the 3 exercises. The purpose is to enhance your S&S practice. You might reach out to him if you are interested.

Again, not the pro here or have even accomplished Simple, but that's my experience.

 

[Oscar]

Maybe doing only goblet squats in this manner would serve a purpose as a light day when Im busy... ?

Thanks for the advice. I will try that!
But as I have given more thought to this thing with my gs’s I really think Im taxing myself too much on those. I think I have turned them to a third main exercise rather than doing them as a mobility warmup. Im really pulling myself down slowly and doing curls on every rep, which I think is quite good but that maybe doesn’t quite fit to S&S for me. I mean I dont want to take my swings/tgu’s any easier just because I worked harder on my gs’s... Maybe doing only goblet squats in this manner would serve a purpose as a light day when Im busy... ?

IMO, doing only goblet squats on busy days is not a great idea in the context of S&S. Swings are the backbone of S&S and, as stated by @Steve Freides on another thread, they represent close to 80% of the program. On busy days I ditch the TGU altogether and do as follows:

- 1 set of 7 goblet squats and 1 set of 7 bridges as warm up.

Then, one of the following alternatives, depending of what fits my schedule best:

- GTG swings in set of 10 with a bell 4 kg heavier than my usual. GTG allows me to go heavier.

- 6 sets of 10 swings OTM.

- 4 sets of 15 swings.

- 1 set of non stop swings.

All the above alternatives take between 2 and 6 minutes (or 10 minutes GTG) so you can fit on a very busy day.

 

[Nacho]

That's a great observation! If you search a little more on the forums, there is a thread (or possibly threads) where Pavel indicates that you can eventually ditch the halos and hip bridges but the prying goblet squats must stay as a part of the warm up.

The suggested GS weight is your swing weight. When I moved up to the 32kg, I abondoned the curls. I also wouldn't always use a 32kg for the goblet squat either. If I was going to do heavier GUs or push the density a little, I would ladder down to 20-24kg. I'd do some curls then but not on every rep. Maybe 3 curls the first couple reps of reps for the first 2 sets. I do think it would be cool to hone in on them a little more if you were going to do a variety day that's not strictly focused on S&S practice. I'll still contend that I've gotten more out of 32kg goblet squats than double front squats @20kg.

One other thing that I'll say on the subject is @CMarker has a great experimental 6 week program where swings, GUs and GSs are the 3 exercises. The purpose is to enhance your S&S practice. You might reach out to him if you are interested.

Again, not the pro here or have even accomplished Simple, but that's my experience.

This is so confusing to me. I have read many books by Pavel and I love how he makes things simple and effective for people, but I just cant seem to get the GS in S&S.
I read the part in the book (once again) and the GS seems to make perfect sense as a warm up. He describes how you should stay at the bottom, relax and find space etc. Nothing really indicates that you should use a whole lot of strenght and energy during this. Lovely!

But then it gets confusing to me. - > "Do 3x5 reps, resting between them if necessary". And if I add all together and match the weight to my swings and do the curls, this would take me quite a while and I would be pretty much done after those to be honest. Btw, if it makes any difference, Im 189cm tall with long legs, so maybe squat is relatively harder for me. ( I do swings & get ups with 26kg and 32kg )

Part of me wants to just do roughly 2x3 light GS`s with prying and curling on every rep and I feel I should be warmed up for swings. Especially as Im doing S&S almost daily and I have always been fairly mobile. I dont really feel like Im getting much warmer or mobile after the first set of warmups.
However, thats not by the book and Im trying to do everthing I can not to do things "my way".
But Pavel also mentions that "The above regimen is meant to bring a moderately tight but healthy person up to speed"... So, could I maybe cut a corner here... ?

Maybe its best to just try and find what works the best for me. I just dont want to do anything stupid. And I can see from yours and other training logs, that people really seem to do swing weight goblet squats 3x5 as a warmup. That makes me feel like Im missing some leg strenght or something if I only do a few light ones.

Sorry for a lot of random thoughts. As I said, confused.

 

[Anna C]

Part of me wants to just do roughly 2x3 light GS`s with prying and curling on every rep and I feel I should be warmed up for swings. Especially as Im doing S&S almost daily and I have always been fairly mobile. I dont really feel like Im getting much warmer or mobile after the first set of warmups.

I would suggest then, do the 2x3 light GS with prying and curling, then do 1 set of 5 "strength" goblet squats (stay tight, no moving, prying, or curling -- just go down, slight pause staying tight and upgright, and come back up) with your 26kg. In a week or two, add a second set of 5 of these at 26kg. Feel how each affects your swing. You want them to warm up your leg muscles (not adequately done by 2x3 light GS with prying and curling, IMO) but not fatigue you prior to swings.

 

[Nacho]

I would suggest then, do the 2x3 light GS with prying and curling, then do 1 set of 5 "strength" goblet squats (stay tight, no moving, prying, or curling -- just go down, slight pause staying tight and upgright, and come back up) with your 26kg. In a week or two, add a second set of 5 of these at 26kg. Feel how each affects your swing. You want them to warm up your leg muscles (not adequately done by 2x3 light GS with prying and curling, IMO) but not fatigue you prior to swings.

Anna, I actually tried one set with 26kg before. The problem I faced, was that as I have competition bells, I couldnt quite find a comfortable position with my wrists.
Am I missing something vital if I do what you suggested, but change GS to Front squat with the heavier weight to warm up my legs? So maybe 1x3 light prying gs`s + 2x5 front squats (1L + 1R)?

 

[Anna C]

Am I missing something vital if I do what you suggested, but change GS to Front squat with the heavier weight to warm up my legs? So maybe 1x3 light prying gs`s + 2x5 front squats (1L + 1R)?

Great idea! Yes that should work fine for the purpose.

 

[Oscar]

Anna, I actually tried one set with 26kg before. The problem I faced, was that as I have competition bells, I couldnt quite find a comfortable position with my wrists.
Am I missing something vital if I do what you suggested, but change GS to Front squat with the heavier weight to warm up my legs? So maybe 1x3 light prying gs`s + 2x5 front squats (1L + 1R)?

If it's hard to hold the competition kettlebell because it has vertical horns, you could just grab it by the body for the goblet squats. Then do only one rep by the horns for the curls, or dont do curls.

 

[Nacho]

If it's hard to hold the competition kettlebell because it has vertical horns, you could just grab it by the body for the goblet squats. Then do only one rep by the horns for the curls, or dont do curls.

Thats also an interesting idea. Got to try it. But whats the best way to lift it off the floor then?

 

[Ryan T]

This is so confusing to me. I have read many books by Pavel and I love how he makes things simple and effective for people, but I just cant seem to get the GS in S&S.
I read the part in the book (once again) and the GS seems to make perfect sense as a warm up. He describes how you should stay at the bottom, relax and find space etc. Nothing really indicates that you should use a whole lot of strenght and energy during this. Lovely!

But then it gets confusing to me. - > "Do 3x5 reps, resting between them if necessary". And if I add all together and match the weight to my swings and do the curls, this would take me quite a while and I would be pretty much done after those to be honest. Btw, if it makes any difference, Im 189cm tall with long legs, so maybe squat is relatively harder for me. ( I do swings & get ups with 26kg and 32kg )

Part of me wants to just do roughly 2x3 light GS`s with prying and curling on every rep and I feel I should be warmed up for swings. Especially as Im doing S&S almost daily and I have always been fairly mobile. I dont really feel like Im getting much warmer or mobile after the first set of warmups.
However, thats not by the book and Im trying to do everthing I can not to do things "my way".
But Pavel also mentions that "The above regimen is meant to bring a moderately tight but healthy person up to speed"... So, could I maybe cut a corner here... ?

Maybe its best to just try and find what works the best for me. I just dont want to do anything stupid. And I can see from yours and other training logs, that people really seem to do swing weight goblet squats 3x5 as a warmup. That makes me feel like Im missing some leg strenght or something if I only do a few light ones.

Sorry for a lot of random thoughts. As I said, confused.

Don't stress out about it too much and try different things and see what works for you. If you are progressing toward your goals (Simple or whatever), then I'd say you're not missing out on leg strength.

If you look a little deeper through my training logs you'll see that sometimes I go with a lighter goblet squat weight such as 16-24kg. Other times if my knees were bothering me, I would do single leg deadlifts and then tactical frog to get both the muscles warmed up and pry the legs so to speak.

You could also dedicate 1-2 days a week to a variety day and have some fun with sets of front squats and clean and press etc...

Don't get so caught up in the details that you forget to enjoy your training.

 

[Bunn]

@Nacho Something you can try, place the bell othe ground just in front of you, lower yourself into your squat position and pick it up from there. Admittedly, you do need to be able to get deep into the squat for the technique to work, but it is something that worked for me in the past.

 

[Nacho]

IMO, doing only goblet squats on busy days is not a great idea in the context of S&S. Swings are the backbone of S&S and, as stated by @Steve Freides on another thread, they represent close to 80% of the program. On busy days I ditch the TGU altogether and do as follows:

- 1 set of 7 goblet squats and 1 set of 7 bridges as warm up.

Then, one of the following alternatives, depending of what fits my schedule best:

- GTG swings in set of 10 with a bell 4 kg heavier than my usual. GTG allows me to go heavier.

- 6 sets of 10 swings OTM.

- 4 sets of 15 swings.

- 1 set of non stop swings.

All the above alternatives take between 2 and 6 minutes (or 10 minutes GTG) so you can fit on a very busy day.

Before I started S&S 4 months ago, I did GTG swings as well during the day. I loved it! Then I did some get ups in the evening on some of the days.
However, I felt like I was missing some cardio so I decided to switch to S&S as written to get my heart working a bit.
I also used to do around 300 lighter swings a couple of times a week on sets of 15-50. Thats when my back felt the best actually.

As I have been doing the S&S as written for 4 months now 6 days a week and feel like progress is totally stuck, I think I might try to add these 3 together and see what happens.

GTG swings & get ups (1-2 times a week)
S&S as written (2-4 times a week)
High volyme light(ish) weight swings (1-2 times a week)

 

[Oscar]

@Nacho, progress in S&S might be a bit slow. It takes time. I've been doing it for 2 years and still haven't reached Simple.

I think the variants you suggest can work well. I personally try to do S&S as written every time I can, and do the GTG alternative when I dont have 30 minutes straight to train.

I dont know if my approach is the best or the one that gives fastest progress, but I do know I have been progressing steadily since I started 2 years ago.

I'm also wondering if this GTG alternative is not giving me the conditioning I need to reach Simple. I'm getting stronger, I can do 1HS with 40 kg now, which I wouldn't dream about a while back, but my HR goes up when I push the clock with the 32. The most important thing to me is that it allows me to train every day and remain consistent. If it takes a while longer I dont mind, at least I'll get there.

 

[Nacho]

@Oscar, I know it might take time to reach simple. Its just that I feel like my body is telling me it aint going to happen like this. I felt better two months ago with same weights. I even took a week off but didnt help. I really need to try to and change things a bit I think. Just not sure how... Would kind of make sense to keep swinging and doing get ups but change the variables. Maybe even split it compeletely to GTG and then do some conditioning with light swings for example.

 

[Anna C]

@Nacho do you have an SFG nearby you can work with? If not maybe post a form check. Generally, good form/technique is more effective for driving adaptations, so perhaps you could make some tweaks to get more results from your training.