Kettlebell Swings Versus Deadlifts as the "big pull" exercise of choice

[Kozushi]

(This question comes from looking at two Pavel programs - PTTP and S&S where in the first program the big pull is the deadlift and the push the press and in S&S the big pull is the swing and the push the TGU).

Having gotten into deadlifts after a solid base of a few years doing (and still doing!) S&S, here are some observations. Keep in mind my "test" for fitness related things takes place on the mats doing judo.

1. Swings were a great baseline of strength and mobility but deadlifts are juggernauts in comparison - SO much more strength doing deadlifts!!! A HUGE difference.
2. Deadlifts seem to be better conditioning too for judo than swings, since I'm so strong from deadlifts that I don't have to struggle as hard doing judo.
3. Takes way less time or motivation training deadlifts but much greater strength results.
4. Swings might be better for developing speed, timing, coordination, cardio, dynamic balance, alertness. However, I think I can feel that deadlifts also involve balance and alertness.
5. If I had to choose one, it'd be deadlifts. Of course I don't have to choose one, hahaha, so for me it's both!

 

[User 6372]

Thoughts folks?

Heavy swings vs deadlift. With maths!

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

 

[vegpedlr]

Better for what?

If you had spent the last couple of years doing PTTP, and started S&S this year, would you be saying the opposite?

I suppose there is the proper ratio of vodka and pickle juice for each individual.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

I suppose there is the proper ratio of vodka and pickle juice for each individual.

This - I've never quite understood why folks sometimes put swings and deadlift in the same category. They're vodka and pickles, not vodka and other vodka.

That said, if I'm shipped off to guantanamo and forced to choose between them, I take swings, simply for the mobility and multi-directional stress. Gotta go heavy, of course.

 

[Kozushi]

This - I've never quite understood why folks sometimes put swings and deadlift in the same category. They're vodka and pickles, not vodka and other vodka.

That said, if I'm shipped off to guantanamo and forced to choose between them, I take swings, simply for the mobility and multi-directional stress. Gotta go heavy, of course.

Pavel is the one putting them in the same category. He has a big pull and big push in all his showpiece exercise programs. In ETK for instance, he talks about how the snatch covers virtually everything like blanket bombing does in war, but still leaves little patches that need to be tidied up, and this is where the press comes into play. In PTTP the deadlift is the pull and the press the push. In S&S the swing is the pull and the TGU the push. In NW both moves are pushes - one for upper body more and one for lower body, but he tells you to go and deadlift at a gym too to get the pull in!

 

[Kozushi]

Better for what?

If you had spent the last couple of years doing PTTP, and started S&S this year, would you be saying the opposite?

I suppose there is the proper ratio of vodka and pickle juice for each individual.

I mean "versus" as in "comparing". I've been a bit shocked by two things about deadlifts - 1. how quickly I've gotten up to what is for me a surprisingly high weight (and I'll attribute S&S to preparing me for this). 2. how much strength I have gotten from them for judo relative to any other way I've tried to develop strength in the past including bodyweight moves. But conditioning is a thing and without decent "cardio" work, I doubt that heavy lifting will prevent circulation & heart problems and stroke.

 

[Antti]

I think this whole push, pull -characterization is unnecessary and unfruitful. The moves are different with different effects. The end.

 

[Pantrolyx]

I believe one handed swings are excellent for a judoka, and perhaps the best choice if you actually had to choose one of the two excercises. My main reason is that the "anti-twist" required for swinging heavy transfers extremely well to the twisting of the hips that is so essential in judo, IMHO. The timing and technique demands in swinging is very transferable to torque for martial arts.

 

[Steve Freides]

It is an interesting question, IMHO, because while both are a big pull, one is a ballistic and one is a grind.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

Which, in turn, makes me think that, for someone whose sport gives them conditioning, the deadlift might win if you had to choose only one or the two.

For me, someone without a sport outside the gym, but who walks a lot, the deadlift feels more necessary than the swing.

JMO.

-S-

 

[Gravytrain]

for me, with 10 years of grappling, S&S made the biggest impact of my performance on the mats.

I haven't deadlifted a ton, certainly didn't hurt anything when I did it, but without a doubt S&S works very well for grapplers.

At 50 I am still very competitive with any age grappler. And I am not natural athlete at all. Is it S&S? dunno.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

But conditioning is a thing and without decent "cardio" work, I doubt that heavy lifting will prevent circulation & heart problems and stroke.

Main prevention of circulation and heart problems/main contributor to their health is diet. Jim Fixx was in excellent "cardio shape" and keeled over dead while running. Arteries clogged by crappy diet. Everything counts, but in this area diet tops the list

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Here are some observations

Let's examine some of your observations.

1. SO much more strength doing deadlifts!!!

Limit Strength Vs Power

The Deadlift, when performing near max loads, is a Limit Strength Exercise.

Swing are a Power Exercise.

Strength Is The Foundation of Power

Novice and Intermediate Lifter initially increase Power by increasing Limit Strength; to a degree the greater your Limit Strength, the greater your Power Output is.

"Lifting Heavy Weights Make You Slow"

There is some validity this statement that I have addressed in previous post.

Individual who solely train with Heavy Load will experience a decrease in Power and Speed.

That due to the conversion of the "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber to Fast Twitch Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

"Super" Fast Type IIb/x are developed and utilized more in Power and Speed; Type IIa Muscle Fiber are employed more in Limit Strength.

2. Deadlifts seem to be better conditioning too for judo than swings, since I'm so strong from deadlifts that I don't have to struggle as hard doing judo.

Misreading The Tea Leaves

Both the Deadlift and Swings can be utilized for condition. dependent on how the program is written and performed.

Secondly, Judo is a Power Sport. I spent two years in Judo.

This takes us back to "Limit Strength is The Foundation of Power".

However, solely performing Limit Strength eventually will decrease your Power and Speed; one research article that I posted a few days ago went into that.

The key to ensuring Power Development while increasing Limit Strength is...

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifter are the "Poster Children" for Conjugate Training. They posses enormous Limit Strength and Power due to that fact that they train both at the same time.

Research has demonstrated a Synergistic Effect occur when you train both; Power increases as does Limit Strength.

3. Training deadlifts...much greater strength results.

The Deadlift Is A Limit Strength Exercise.

That means it's going to develop more Limit Strength than a Kettlebell Swing, a Power Movement.

5. If I had to choose one, it'd be deadlifts.

The Right Tool For The Right Job

Olympic Lifts/Movements and Kettlebell Swing are Power Movements.

Research has demonstrated that that up to 52.6 w/kg Men of Power Output are produced during an Olympic Movement.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

Dr Bret Contreras research on Kettlebell Swing demonstrates they rival the Power Output of Olympic Movements

The Deadlift, when preformed with a moderate load for Power Training, produce up to 12 w/kg of Power.

Thus, over 4 Times the amount of Power is displayed with Olympic Movements and Kettlebell Swing compared to "Power Deadlift Training".

Take Home Message

1) Use the right tool for the right job:

a) Power: Olympic Movements and/or Heavy Kettlebell Swings (Trap Bar Jump Squat work as well. Another topic).

b) Limit Strength: Heavy Deadlift (Traditional Exercises).

c) Conjugate Training: It provides a Synergistic Effect. Power enhances Limit Strength; Limit Strength enhance Power, 2 + 2 = 5!

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Jim Fixx was in excellent "cardio shape" and keeled over dead while running. Arteries clogged by crappy diet.

Diet?

What data to you have to support that it was diet alone?

His family had a history of cardiovascular problems.

It usually a combination of factors, such as genetics, diet, etc.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[the hansenator]

@Kozushi Since you were doing S&S before, do you think that had an influence on your success with deadlifts compared to if you didn't have that background?

 

[Alan Mackey]

In my opinion, the ultimate hinge exercise would be the clean, no matter which variation (hang, clean, power...) or implement (barbell, kettlebell, dumbbell, sandbag...).

Deadlifts and swings are, basically, opposite sides of the hinge spectrum, more complementary than competing lifts.

 

[malleus]

Can you explain why? The clean? Thanx

 

[Kozushi]

I think this whole push, pull -characterization is unnecessary and unfruitful. The moves are different with different effects. The end.

Which, in turn, makes me think that, for someone whose sport gives them conditioning, the deadlift might win if you had to choose only one or the two.

For me, someone without a sport outside the gym, but who walks a lot, the deadlift feels more necessary than the swing.

JMO.

-S-

I think I agree 100% with you.

 

[Kozushi]

Diet?

What data to you have to support that it was diet alone?

His family had a history of cardiovascular problems.

It usually a combination of factors, such as genetics, diet, etc.

Kenny Croxdale

Also, how is diet alone going to save you if you don't get out of bed ever - something is going to clog up or stop working! I don't think dieting alone works for health. It's a factor, but not the only one.

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi Since you were doing S&S before, do you think that had an influence on your success with deadlifts compared to if you didn't have that background?

YES! Absolutely! I knew the hip-thrust movement or whatever you call it already from doing 2h and 1h swings for years, and I certainly agree that for short instants there is true "virtual weight" added to the kettlebell much higher than the real weight of the bell. I more or less instantly picked up a 300lbs barbell and lifted it for a few reps at a time. Now I'm on 350lbs for 3 reps with about 10 seconds in between each rep. So, my suspicion is that swinging the 32kg single handedly was equivalent in some parts of the move to deadlifting about 300lbs. Still, I've noticed more limit and endurance strength resulting from my progress with deadlifts, which probably is because the 350lbs deadlifting weight I'm at now is heavier than whatever virtual weight was going on with the 32kg kettlebell.