Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
So, from grappler to grappler, I'd suggest keeping the S&S going as your main thing (it is wonderful!) but getting a bar and doing a few reps a day of limit strength deadlift training with it.
Kettlebell Swings Versus Deadlifts as the "big pull" exercise of choice
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Having done MMA, Kickboxing and Karate for several years also, it felt clear to me that swings might be more important for these sports, since acceleration and dynamic force transfer through to the tips of the fists are key components. I'm not too sure what deadlifts would do for someone in a purely striking combat sport that aren't more than covered by swings. But in grappling where you are doing a lot of slow lifting almost always, the deadlift seems very appropriate, not to say that the power generation of swings won't be of use to assist!
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
CVD is a lifestyle disease, not a genetic disease. Diet is the most important factor, and smoking a secondary factor. People have been overcoming CVD following programs such as CHP, DASH, Esselstyn, Ornish, McDougall, Pritikin, going all the way back to Kempner in the 1940s.
Easy Strength - and other places as well - discuss the point of diminishing returns for strength training for athletes in other sports. Generally somewhere around 2 - 2.5 times bodyweight is cited for the deadlift. Beyond that, athletic performance often decreases, so it's not even just diminishing returns, it's actually detrimental. But where that point is needs to be determined individually for each athlete, and it's also not necessarily going to be static for an athlete with a competitive season - good for such people to work on increasing strength when they're not competing, and then cut back on strength work in-season.
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Those are good numbers to know. I'm not sure sure how high I should shoot for in deadlifting. I'll assume then that getting into the range of double my bodyweight (440lbs) should be as high as I should try for without compromising athletic ability, but I have no idea if I really need to go that high. I guess it will just depend on my natural progress. Yes, the 350lbs deadlifts are getting gradually easier, measured in less rest time between reps and more feeling of ease doing them.
But, regarding swings again, how they get my heart rate up real high real fast, without pounding on my floor and without in fact moving my feet at all is in my view an extremely efficient way of getting "cardio" training in: I stay in exactly one spot in my living room and my heart rate goes up super high in a few seconds and stays there until done all the 100 swings in the S&S protocol!
NoahMarek
Level 5 Valued Member
Simply dismissing the genetic factor is an inaccurate statement to make. Coming from a medical background, it’s important to recognize that genetics play a large factor in pretty much all diseases/conditions. I don’t want to come across as rude; I just think this is an important distinction to make.
And lifestyle of course plays a massive factor but so do genetics. Everyone dies of something and it isn’t simply “old age”. There is always a cause behind it and old age isn’t recognized as a cause of death.
Alan Mackey
Level 7 Valued Member
Basically, it’s a lift that teaches your whole body to move as a unit against a significant external resistance in an explosive manner.
Besides, truly heavy cleans end up being a front squat. So there’s that.
Paraphrasing my favorite american coach, if all you did was clean and press/pushpress/jerk, you could be awesome.
Add a few pull ups and loaded carries to that and you’ll have almost everything any athlete really needs .
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
I am well aware of the role diet plays. However, genetics plays a huge role, as well.
As Noah Marek stated, "Simply dismissing the genetic factor is an inaccurate statement to make. Coming from a medical background, it’s important to recognize that genetics play a large factor in pretty much all diseases/conditions."
With that said, you never answered the question of pertaining to Jim Fixx, "What data to you have to support that it was diet alone?"
Kenny Croxdale
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Olympic Lifters
Research has determined they are some of, if not, the greatest Power Athletes. They are incredibly strong; Deadlifting more than double their body weight.
Thus, a double body weight Deadlift doesn't compromise athletic ability. A greater than double weight body weight Deadlift can enhance athletic ability in a well written and executed program; that due to the fact the Limit Strength is the foundation on which Power is built.
Dr Mike Stone
Stone is a former Strength Coach for the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Spring; a household name in the world of Strength Training.
During an interview, Stone was quizzed about what American Weightlifter need to do to place higher. Stone's reply was, "They need to get stronger."
Power = Force X Distance/Time
Another way of stated it is, Power = Strength X Speed
...if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2+ and the athletes arbitrary speed score also was the hypothetical power rating would be:
2 X 2 - 4
Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:
4 X 2 = 8
If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain in speed, the power rating would be:
3 X 3 = 9
(Source Greg Brittenham, "Plyometric Bench Press for More Strength and Power")
David Kerin, USATF (USA Track and Field Coach)
A brilliant article by Kerin is, "What is the most direct means to achieve strength gains specific to the demands of jumping events?"
Kerin's research demonstrated Brittenham's example that Power is increased by either increasing a Jumper's Limit Strength Or Speed, enable them to jump farther.
Kenny Croxdale
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
I maintain that CVD is a lifestyle disease, not a genetic disorder. Considering its near ubiquity in populations eatings Western style diet, and near absence those that do not, I believe everybody has enough genetic risk factors to be concerned.
If someone does have a bunch of risk factors, what should they do? Change their genetics? Not yet. Much of genetic expression is determined by environmental factors. The most important part of the environment are the pounds of it we swallow every day. So that makes lifestyle factors even more important. Most of the people who go through lifestyle interventions do so out of desperation, often including poor genetics. The success shows to me that lifestyle is much more important than genetics. IMHO, too many people use genetics as a cop out instead of taking matters into their own hands, believing it's out of their control.
RE: Jim Fixx
I didn't bring it up and do not know if such data exists. He is a celebrity example of how health and fitness, while related, are quite the same thing. Fix famously believed that if you could run a marathon, you were protected. Lots of people were quite happy with his death, since it showed exercise was at best, ineffective, and at worst, dangerous. Another example is Bill Pearl. He went vegetarian at the height of his career, because while appearing healthy with his physique an fantastic strength, he was not.
Apologies for hijacking the thread.
If someone does have a bunch of risk factors, what should they do? Change their genetics? Not yet. Much of genetic expression is determined by environmental factors. The most important part of the environment are the pounds of it we swallow every day. So that makes lifestyle factors even more important. Most of the people who go through lifestyle interventions do so out of desperation, often including poor genetics. The success shows to me that lifestyle is much more important than genetics. IMHO, too many people use genetics as a cop out instead of taking matters into their own hands, believing it's out of their control.
RE: Jim Fixx
I didn't bring it up and do not know if such data exists. He is a celebrity example of how health and fitness, while related, are quite the same thing. Fix famously believed that if you could run a marathon, you were protected. Lots of people were quite happy with his death, since it showed exercise was at best, ineffective, and at worst, dangerous. Another example is Bill Pearl. He went vegetarian at the height of his career, because while appearing healthy with his physique an fantastic strength, he was not.
Apologies for hijacking the thread.
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi
I'm still wondering as before, if the order in which you worked on these exercises explains your reaction. If you focused on the DL for a couple years, with PTTP, or ES, or whatever, then switched to KB work, would you be singing the song praises differently? Would you be praising the swing for explosive nature, its value for conditioning?
No way to know, but I wonder anyway. Do you take your pickle juice before, or after your vodka? Try to prevent the hangover, or cure it after the fact?
I'm still wondering as before, if the order in which you worked on these exercises explains your reaction. If you focused on the DL for a couple years, with PTTP, or ES, or whatever, then switched to KB work, would you be singing the song praises differently? Would you be praising the swing for explosive nature, its value for conditioning?
No way to know, but I wonder anyway. Do you take your pickle juice before, or after your vodka? Try to prevent the hangover, or cure it after the fact?
Marc
Level 6 Valued Member
Very interesting point. With that in mind, what would you say is the closest KB exercise/modality that one could do to mimic the Deadlift when a barbbell is not aviable.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Some individuals are predisposed more so than other to some health issues more so than others.
An example, are those who are Insulin Resistant and Insulin Sensitivity.
Insulin Resistant individual have problems with high carbohydrate intake while Insulin Sensitivity individual don't. Thus, the same diet elicit a different response due to their genetics
Great News
Now provide the data that supports it.
Agreed. That applies to the majority of individuals in all aspects of life. They are victims. It always someone else's fault.
I stand corrected. GeoffreyLevens said it.
Bill Pearl
Pearl "went vegetarian" at the end of his career, in retirement.
Evidently, you have data regarding his going vegan due his poor health. Please post that information, as well.
Kenny Croxdale
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vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
I do not have the interest in engaging in an argument of studies. I offer sharing what I have found compelling in the sprit of sharing, not debate. For anyone who may be interested, all of the programs I mentioned earlier are excellent resources that have collected data and published studies for decades. Anyone who is interested, can start there.
Since genetics are out of our personal control, I don't see the point in worrying about it, when lifestyle factors can be very effective. Makes more sense to me to work on prevention via lifestyle than wonder about what ticking time bombs lurk in my DNA. YMMV.
RE: Bill Pearl
It's his own anecdotal experience I use merely to illustrate that fitness and health are not the same thing, yet often confused. He describes his experience in his books and interviews, for anyone who would like to know more.
Since genetics are out of our personal control, I don't see the point in worrying about it, when lifestyle factors can be very effective. Makes more sense to me to work on prevention via lifestyle than wonder about what ticking time bombs lurk in my DNA. YMMV.
RE: Bill Pearl
It's his own anecdotal experience I use merely to illustrate that fitness and health are not the same thing, yet often confused. He describes his experience in his books and interviews, for anyone who would like to know more.
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GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Vegpedlr pretty much covered it re: "an argument of studies".
"Mine's longer."
"Yeah, well mine's thicker"
Couldn't resist. But really, most of the time it seems to boil down to that. I've been reading research for years, and you have to dig in to the methods, etc to see how well study was designed, and the conclusions to see if they are actually warranted by the data, AND the funding.... But all I've read over the past 8 or 9 years about diet/nutrition points to some very basic principles. Before I list them, remember, epigentics very often trumps (sorry no pun inteneded) genetics and epigenetics comes from exposures--our most ongoing and comprehensive exposure is to our diet, every day, several times a day.
Most of the time:
You do NOT have to be vegan nor vegetarian. But to minimize risk animal sourced foods should be very minor part of diet.
Don't eat manufactured crap
Don't eat extracted parts of foods, eat the whole thing, as close to intact as possible.
That's about it. Real food, mostly plants. Pretty much what Micheal Pollan wrote a few years ago in one of his books.
"Mine's longer."
"Yeah, well mine's thicker"
Couldn't resist. But really, most of the time it seems to boil down to that. I've been reading research for years, and you have to dig in to the methods, etc to see how well study was designed, and the conclusions to see if they are actually warranted by the data, AND the funding.... But all I've read over the past 8 or 9 years about diet/nutrition points to some very basic principles. Before I list them, remember, epigentics very often trumps (sorry no pun inteneded) genetics and epigenetics comes from exposures--our most ongoing and comprehensive exposure is to our diet, every day, several times a day.
Most of the time:
You do NOT have to be vegan nor vegetarian. But to minimize risk animal sourced foods should be very minor part of diet.
Don't eat manufactured crap
Don't eat extracted parts of foods, eat the whole thing, as close to intact as possible.
That's about it. Real food, mostly plants. Pretty much what Micheal Pollan wrote a few years ago in one of his books.
NoahMarek
Level 5 Valued Member
@vegpedlr I totally agree that worrying about genetic predispositions without taking action is not helping anyone and is more likely to have a nocebo effect. Focusing on lifestyle changes/improving habits is exactly what we should be doing. I would also agree that most of the time, something like CVD is not a “genetic disorder” however some people do genetically have a much higher risk of things like obesity and CVD.
Simply making a dichotomous statement that CVD is a lifestyle disorder is contrary to current evidence and can be insulting to people that have legitimately high genetic predispositions.
Simply making a dichotomous statement that CVD is a lifestyle disorder is contrary to current evidence and can be insulting to people that have legitimately high genetic predispositions.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe you have heard of or read some of the research showing Dean Ornish's program reversing coronary artery disease? Works so well that many major insurance companies now cover it and they are all about the bottom line costs so they tend to go with what works. There's always a few way out on the tail of any bell curve so no matter what the studies say in terms of benefits/prevention/etc, there will be some who will still get "bit". But playing the odds is all we've got and the big preponderance of the data comes down the same. If you read Weston Price's actual book detailing what he found, the people he studied who had excellent health around the world ate pretty much by the few principles I listed above. Same with Buettner's Blue Zones. Minimally processed, whole foods, mostly from plants, animals AND plants all raised in accordance with their pre-domesticated lifestyles.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I haven't switched though. I just added deadlifts on. I'm only doing between 3 and 9 of them a day, so they aren't any kind of replacement for S&S. I've experimented laying off S&S for a few weeks while continuing with deadlifts and presses though, and there are definitely things I miss about the S&S routine that limit strength training cannot replace - mental alertness, displacement, cardio. There is something about moving around a lot under stress like in S&S that resembles a real athletic challenge, well hehehe, it is a real athletic challenge so that's why!
But I think Steve Frieds has alluded to the same conundrum that I am making reference to - that if you're already doing a sport, or some kind of cardio/mobility activity (even just walking, which is a great things to do!) you won't be missing the swings too much if you're doing deadlifts.
I think your question is a good one. I'm sure we could find someone on these forums who has done that and find out what he thinks. I'm thinking back to when I started SF training and the idea of lifting 350lbs off the ground sounded like a sure recipe for ripping apart my internal organs!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I'm certainly no nutritionist but I remember the NASA nutritionists talking about what they feed astronauts and they said it is basically just your "typical North American diet", so I'm imagining meals like potatoes/rice, beans/corn, beef/pork, salad, milk/cheese.
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