Kettlebell Swings Versus Deadlifts as the "big pull" exercise of choice

[vegpedlr]

@Kozushi

OK, I'm a little confused. You've added the DL to S&S? What sort of volume? Are you doing the same amount of swings, now with DL added on top? Or did you reduce KB volume to make room for the DL? In any case, my question on the order is still the same, would you have similar comments but in reverse if you had focused on the DL for a couple years, then addd swings?

I think the question and people's experience is interesting. Should people focus on one quality first, then the other, if so, in what order? Or should both be trained concurrently?

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

No insult intended, my comments are aimed at the majority. For those with an unusually high risk, lifestyle becomes even more important.

Not research unless you call me a (lab) rat and study with n=1 but--

1. 1 grandparent each side with diabetes
2. 1 uncle with diabetes (definitely died of diabetic complications)
3. 2 cousins (definitely died of diabetic complications)
4. 1 sister prediabetic

When I first tuned into this at age 58 (better late than never), after a lifetime of being a "health fooder" i.e. organic mostly but a lot of packaged stuff, organic chips, health food donuts, etc, my cholesterol was 260, fasting blood sugars were in high 90's and A1c can't remember but a bit over 6%. Now my cholesterol is about 150 w/ low LDL, low triglycerides, moderately high HDL, fasting sugar low 70's and last A1c was 4.7% Heavy genetic tendencies and I was headed off the same cliff. Switched up my diet (always been heavily into exercise and sports) and now, probably healthier than I've been since in my 20's when you can, at least for awhile, get away with almost anything

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi

OK, I'm a little confused. You've added the DL to S&S? What sort of volume? Are you doing the same amount of swings, now with DL added on top? Or did you reduce KB volume to make room for the DL? In any case, my question on the order is still the same, would you have similar comments but in reverse if you had focused on the DL for a couple years, then addd swings?

I think the question and people's experience is interesting. Should people focus on one quality first, then the other, if so, in what order? Or should both be trained concurrently?

S&S 2 days a week (the minimum amount) often on Saturday and Sunday actually, days I don't do judo. Otherwise it's judo 4 days a week and deadlifts, presses and ring dips every day - these three don't take much time; they're moves not a program, the deadlifts and presses are only for limit strength, the rings a bit for conditioning and other things I guess to help balance out the deadlifting stresses.

My case was 2 years of S&S before even considering deadlifts at all, and since I was able to instantly deadlift significantly more than my bodyweight without hurting myself, I'd have to assume that S&S prepared me for that, and I think the TGUs were part of it also, not just the swings. The TGUs teach time under tension which counts for heavy lifts.

Speaking more broadly on the idea of doing one thing to a certain level, then using it as a base for another, leaving behind the first thing, then progressing like this through different exercise routines - I think this is the right approach. I see this a lot in people who get good at exercises and sports. It is even true for judo - if you have a base in some other things (like BJJ, Karate, wrestling, weightlifting, yoga, etc...) you are not really a "beginner" when you start judo. My wife started exercising with running, then got into yoga, then got into TRX, and now she has started lifting real weights too. There seems to be a progression there. I wasn't starting from scratch with S&S either since I had spent a lifetime with chinups, walking, hiking, judo.

I've had a hiatus from S&S for the past two weeks partly because I'm running an experiment trying to see what it's like without it, and partly because we have some guests over and it's inconvenient to take up the living room for S&S these days. The deadlifts, presses and ring dips take no time nor special dressing for them, so I can do them daily no problem.

I don't know if I'd be singing the praises of swings now if I had started with deadlifts. Clearly, I don't care about asymmetrical load or power or anything, the weight of the 350lbs deadlift trumps anything possible with a 32kg kettlebell, I don't care what kind of pulling movement we're talking about 1 handed, 2 handed or anything. Regarding swinging a 40 or 48kg kettlebell, well, there is virtual weight going on, but it's a much more awkward and time consuming exercise than deadlifting. Deadlifting is safer, simpler and much much faster to do. There are things going on with coordination, timing, cardio and breathing with the 100 kettlebell swings that are priceless in their own right and not reproducable with the deadlift. Can you get most of these out of skipping rope or running - maybe a lot of them. At the end of the day the deadlifter has much higher limit strength than the swinger, and cardio can be gotten from other things besides swings (like cycling even). But, I don't like cycling, running or skipping, so I'm doing swings.

 

[vegpedlr]

Gotcha.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...the first thing, then progressing like this through different exercise routines - I think this is the right approach.

Traditional Periodization Training

The focus of solely devoting a training program to one specific type of Strength Training, following it with another type of Strength Training is the define Traditional Periodization Training.

As an example, performing only Limit Strength Exercises for a training cycle/period.

Then switching to Power Exercises for a training cycle/period.

The Upside

The sole focus accelerates your progress faster in that one type of Strength.

The Downside

While the Strength you are training increases, the Strength you aren't training decreases; something that research and anecdotal data have demonstrated.

Conjugate Training

This type of program combines different type of Strength Training into the same program.

Olympic Lifter are the "Conjugate Training "Poster Children".

The foundation of the successful Westside Powerlifting Conjugate Method (circa 1980) was taken from Olympic Lifter Conjugate Training Protocol.

Dr Zourdos' PhD Undulating Training Dissertation

Zourdos found that training different type of Strength (Hypertrophy, Power, and Limit Strength) in the same program provide a Synergistic Effect; increasing one Strength enhanced the other.

Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Training Research

Schoenfeld's research found the same when it come to Hypertrophy Training, increasing muscle mass.

Three factors were needed for optimal Hypertrophy

1) Mechanical Tension: Training Limit Strength needed to be part of a Hypertrophy Training Program.

2) Metabolic Stress: "The Pump" needed to be part of a Hypertrophy Training Program.

3) Muscle Damage: Stressing the muscles needed to be part of a Hypertrophy Training Program; pushing to failure or near to it along with full movement that stretch the muscle.

The Right Approach

Both Traditional Periodization Training and Conjugate "Undulating" Periodization Training work.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Very interesting point. With that in mind, what would you say is the closest KB exercise/modality that one could do to mimic the Deadlift when a barbbell is not aviable.

Apples and Oranges

Good question. After reading it, my head hurt. So, I took two aspirin and laid down.

It like comparing Apples to Oranges.

KB Exercise That Mimics The Deadlift

I am going with the third alternative, not listed, "None of the above."

The Deadlift

It is primarily a Limit Strength Exercise.

"Speed Deadlifts" (Westside Powerlifting Method) trains them to increase "Deadlift Pulling Power". However, Dr Garhammer's research (cited in a previous post) note that even when you decreased the Deadlift load, it does not produce nor develop Power to the same extent as Olympic Pull; Contreras' research demonstrated that Heavy Kettlebell Swing rival the Power Output of Olympic Pulls.

A side bar note is that "Speed Deadlifts" is a misnomer. Speed is developed with load of between 10 to 40% to of 1 Repetition Max with Traditional Exercises.

"Speed Deadlifts" are actually "Power Deadlifts". Power is developed with load of between to 48 to 62% of 1 Repetition Max Traditional Exercises.

The Westside Powerlifting Method Protocol designates load in the "Power Percentage" category. Thus, Westside Deadlifts are a Power, not a Speed Movement.

Heavy Kettlebell Swing

It is primarily a Power Movement.

This is Power Movement provides carry over to the Deadlift; increasing Limit Strength to some degree. However, it nor is any other KB Movement is going to be able to mimic the Deadlift, as a means of optimizing Limit Strength for the Deadlift; near max load are required.

To do that you'd need to perform Kettlebell Deadlift with load in the same neighborhood as your Deadlift Training Load.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Marc]

Thanks @kennycro@@aol.com you're right: not really comparable. But if really pressed to name one, I would say heavy double kettlebell swings like 5 reps and going really heavy. Speaking from personal experience these are probably the one kettlebell move that taxes the posterior chain the most.

 

[Steve Freides]

Very interesting point. With that in mind, what would you say is the closest KB exercise/modality that one could do to mimic the Deadlift when a barbbell is not aviable.

I will change your question slightly: What is the kettlebell exercise that delivers benefits most similar to the barbell deadlift?

The answer: the snatch and/or the swing. If I didn't have a barbell but wanted to be the best prepared I could be for a powerlifting deadlift, I would train the kettlebell snatch at a relatively moderate weight and the kettlebell swing at a heavier weight. If I had only one kettlebell, I'd do more reps in a set for the swing. If I could only do one exercise, it would be the snatch.

-S-

 

[Matt Piercy]

I've done both and gotten to a somewhat respectable weight in both. My opinion is they're a different lift and can't really be compared. They start in the same stance and they are both pulls, but once the weight leaves the ground they are different and how the body moves is obviously different.
Deadlift= The deadlift is a heavy pull. It's most commonly done under heavy load and low reps. It's a grinding lift and the arms stay close to the body. You are attempting to move the weight is a straight line, up your body, until the lockout with a short isometric hold at the top.
Swing= The swing is a light pull. It's most commonly done under light load and high reps. It's a ballistic lift and the arms are propelled away from the body. You are attempting to cast the weight powerfuly away from you. There is no isometric hold at the top.

For those reasons I think people should stop the Deadlift vs. Swing debate. They can assist each other (and imo) that's where it stopped. Moving from heavy deadlifts to swings did not improve my swings. I struggled with 10 reps @ 16k just like everybody else. On the flip side, after I began just swinging, the swings did not keep my deadlift up. Once I stopped deadlifting my numbers crashed to where they were months after touching a barbell. This is all just my opinion and my experience that's grown and changed overtime. There was a time where I thought they were basically the same lift.

 

[Matt Piercy]

I will change your question slightly: What is the kettlebell exercise that delivers benefits most similar to the barbell deadlift?

Steve, if I was preparing for a powerlifting deadlift and had only kettlebells. Besides kettlebell deadlifts, I would do long distance farmers carries. Setting the bells down periodically. You'd be copying the exact deadlift movement when you picked them up, and the carry portion mimics the deadlift lockout.

 

[Steve W.]

Just one data point that isn't really indicative of comparative value, but more in terms of learning/developmental sequence:

I started deadlifting with PTTP before the original RKC book/video came out and before KBs were available, and worked up to 425lbs at 180lbs BW. I definitely think the patterning, strength and technique I developed through deadlifting made learning and progressing with KBs a lot easier and I'm glad my training followed this sequence, even though it wasn't planned or intentional.

The standard (and my favored) progression for learning the swing starts with the KB deadlift, so in terms of patterning the sequence starts with the DL either way. However, it is my impression that a lot of people learning KBs neglect the DL and don't spend nearly enough time on it. I also think there is a lot of value in working up to more challenging weights in the DL than KBs can provide before adding the ballistic element of KBs.

 

[Matt Piercy]

Sorry, to run away with the thread like this. But I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. Pavel says the two things a strong person must have is a strong grip and a strong abdominal area.

Deadlifts absolutely do this and so do swings (to a lesser extent because of the load is lighter and you don't hold the bell in a crushing grip). Snatches don't do this as well because your grip is relieved at the top of the lift.

I would actually be interested in seeing how deadlifts would be affected by a swing/snatch regiment vs a TGU/farmers carry regiment. My money would be on the TGU/farmers carry regiment

 

[Oscar]

I find it interesting that we rarely swing as heavy as we could. Heavy 2 HS should have a good carry over to DL and vice versa, but we never swing as heavy. It's probably because such heavy KB are not common. I can very easily swing 32 kg with two hands, but I can't find heavier KBs here in Argentina. I'll build myself a T-handle and investigate it.

My guess is that I can probably 2HS more than 50 kg, and considering that 2xBW for me is 140 kg, swinging more than 50 kg should have good carryover to my DL.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Very interesting point. With that in mind, what would you say is the closest KB exercise/modality that one could do to mimic the Deadlift when a barbbell is not aviable.

You could always put the KB high on your back and do Good Mornings.

My workout routine has generally 3-4 movements per push,pull,hinge,squat. For my Hinge I use Swings, Single leg DL, and Good Mornings. Of the three, the GMs are maybe closest to straight up DL in terms of how they feel to me, but they deload faster as the torso comes up.

FWIW, I'm not convinced Swing works any different muscle fiber type than DLs etc, though from a conditioning POV it definitely can be used for more of a metcon where DLs are a bit unwieldy in that role.

Training Based On Muscle Fiber Type: Are You Missing Out? • Stronger by Science

 

[jca17]

My experience: swings made slow progress over the course of months. I never comfortably reached 24kg (Which is supposed to be the starting point). Focused on barbell once I had access to a gym. Brought 5 reps max from 200 to 315 and even those beginner gains have made going back to swings feel very easy. If I were to train someone and we had access to all modalities, I'd teach them good movement with kettlebells, get them strong with a barbell while warming up with some kettlebell skills, then get them more athletic and well rounded with kettlebells. Their strength will not be the bottleneck on the swings. They will progress as fast as their power adapts.

 

[Kozushi]

Traditional Periodization Training

The focus of solely devoting a training program to one specific type of Strength Training, following it with another type of Strength Training is the define Traditional Periodization Training.

As an example, performing only Limit Strength Exercises for a training cycle/period.

Then switching to Power Exercises for a training cycle/period.

The Upside

The sole focus accelerates your progress faster in that one type of Strength.

The Downside

While the Strength you are training increases, the Strength you aren't training decreases; something that research and anecdotal data have demonstrated.

Conjugate Training

This type of program combines different type of Strength Training into the same program.

Olympic Lifter are the "Conjugate Training "Poster Children".

The foundation of the successful Westside Powerlifting Conjugate Method (circa 1980) was taken from Olympic Lifter Conjugate Training Protocol.

Dr Zourdos' PhD Undulating Training Dissertation

Zourdos found that training different type of Strength (Hypertrophy, Power, and Limit Strength) in the same program provide a Synergistic Effect; increasing one Strength enhanced the other.

Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Training Research

Schoenfeld's research found the same when it come to Hypertrophy Training, increasing muscle mass.

Three factors were needed for optimal Hypertrophy

1) Mechanical Tension: Training Limit Strength needed to be part of a Hypertrophy Training Program.

2) Metabolic Stress: "The Pump" needed to be part of a Hypertrophy Training Program.

3) Muscle Damage: Stressing the muscles needed to be part of a Hypertrophy Training Program; pushing to failure or near to it along with full movement that stretch the muscle.

The Right Approach

Both Traditional Periodization Training and Conjugate "Undulating" Periodization Training work.

Kenny Croxdale

What you describe seems like exactly what S&S is, and what just doing a few reps of limit strength deadlifts and presses is not.

 

[Kozushi]

Sorry, to run away with the thread like this. But I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. Pavel says the two things a strong person must have is a strong grip and a strong abdominal area.

Deadlifts absolutely do this and so do swings (to a lesser extent because of the load is lighter and you don't hold the bell in a crushing grip). Snatches don't do this as well because your grip is relieved at the top of the lift.

I would actually be interested in seeing how deadlifts would be affected by a swing/snatch regiment vs a TGU/farmers carry regiment. My money would be on the TGU/farmers carry regiment

I've actually thought about the same thing before you brought it up. Walking around with some heavy kettlebells (like 40 or 48kg) in my hand(s), or even just standing there perhaps for isometrics, while certainly much weaker than deadlifts with 350lbs allow me to keep hold of the weight for longer than with swings. Hmmm... They just seem too easy though compared with swings, which add virtual force to the equation.

 

[jef]

I also prefer the formulation @Steve Freides used.
What is the kettlebell exercise that delivers benefits most similar to the barbell deadlift?

In my experience, heavy (for me) swings and snatches helped maintain a decent deadlift.
If I don't deadlift for a while, but swing 32 to 40kg kettlebells (I have nothing heavier), I can still go to the gym and deadlift my double bodyweight deadlift (140kg) easily. If I had the bells, I would probably go for 2H-swings with the beast and above.

Anyway, most of the time, I do both. I practice deadlifts are for max strength, swings/snatches for power.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Swing= The swing is a light pull. It's most commonly done under light load and high reps.

Kettlebell Swings

The only reason they would equate to a light pull is by choice; choosing to use a light Kettlebell rather than a heavy Kettlebell Bell or a home made Hungarian Core Blaster.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Besides kettlebell deadlifts, I would do long distance farmers carries.

Core and Condition

Faremer's Carries are more of a core and conditioning movement. Increasing core strength with this method will assist the Deadlift to some degree. However, other types of core training exercises will produce greater core strength for the Deadlift.

My money would be on the TGU...

Turkish Get Up

This core exercise is a much better choice.

Kenny Croxdale