Kettlebell Swings Versus Deadlifts as the "big pull" exercise of choice
- Thread starter Kozushi
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Alan Mackey
Level 7 Valued Member
It's kind of funny that nobody mentioned a truly great exercise: the double KB romanian deadlift.
It's my go-to hinge grind exercise.
It's my go-to hinge grind exercise.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Definitely, Heavy Kettlebell Swings
However, I'd opt for performing them in one of two ways...
1) The Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster: The cost of making it is around $20 with pipe you can purchase at Lowes or Home Depot.
The Hungarian Core Blaster is adjustable; allowing you to increase the load. I've used up to 170 lbs with my Hungarian Core Blaster/Kettlebell Swings.
2) Narrow Stance Dumbbell Swings: Rather than swinging the Kettlebell or Hungarian Core Blaster between you legs, hold Dumbbells outside you legs and preform the same Hip Hinge Movement.
Most people have access to Heavy Dumbbells.
Taxing The Posterior Chain
Dr Bret Contreras Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation research demonstrated the Heavier Swings dramatically increase the Power Output on the Posterior Chain.
Style Kettlebell Load Peak Vertical Force Peak Horizontal Force
Hip Hinge Style 70 lb 1,935-2,140 340-402
Hip Hinge Style 140 lb 2,325-2,550 499-520
Greater Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber in the Posterior Chain is innervated when producing more force when employing a Heavier Load with this method.
Contreras also examine the...
Squat Style Kettlebell Swing
Style Kettlebell Load Peak Vertical Force Peak Horizontal Force
Squat Style 70 lb 2,170-2,349 166-182
Squat Style 140 lb 2,431-2,444 278-353
With the Squat Style you sit into the movement; pushing back as you would in a Low Bar, Wide Stand Squat.
As with the Hip Hinge, a Heavier Squat Style Swing innervate more of the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.
However, the Squat Style Swing place more loading on the Quads and Glutes.
Low Bar, Wide Stance Squat
The Squat Style Swing is an effective method of teaching the Low Bar, Wide Stance Squat.
Height of Heavy Swings
The focus with Heavy Hip Hinge Style and Squat Style Swings it to stand up straight.
The momentum of the Kettlebell won't drift any higher than your waist, if you preforming them with a heavy enough load and executing them correctly.
Exonerating Bret Contreras
"Are Heavy Kettlebell Swing Better Than Deadlifts" is one of the worst titles there is. I question why someone so smart could come up with such a bad title.
In speaking at a National Strength and Conditioning Association Clinic, years ago, Contreras stated that T-Nation edited the title of his article, which didn't go over well with him.
I had something similar happen with an magazine article that I wrote years ago. Evidently, once you turn it over to most magazine, it's theirs edit as they like. That was the first and last article I wrote for that magazine.
Kenny Croxdale
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Just a ramble here, but I think many of us can talk about the "what the heck" effect from kettlebell training that isn't designed to particularly assist anything.
E.g., kettlebell snatches seems to improve just about everything. I've been at this for, give or take about 17 years now, and I can tell you that if I stop doing any powerlifts but devote a cycle to working on moderate weight kettlebell snatches, I will have no trouble moving back into a deadlift cycle, and my max deadlift won't have gone down all that much in the meantime. When I was a regular swimmer, my swimming times improved whenever I had snatches in my cycle along with my swimming.
IMHO, the heavy, two-handed swing, the kind people often do on a t-handle, is a different creature - it somewhat mimics parts of the deadlift. But the good, old, regular swing and snatch, done as we usually do kettlebell ballistics around here, will really carry over very well for, IMHO, most people.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
-S-
E.g., kettlebell snatches seems to improve just about everything. I've been at this for, give or take about 17 years now, and I can tell you that if I stop doing any powerlifts but devote a cycle to working on moderate weight kettlebell snatches, I will have no trouble moving back into a deadlift cycle, and my max deadlift won't have gone down all that much in the meantime. When I was a regular swimmer, my swimming times improved whenever I had snatches in my cycle along with my swimming.
IMHO, the heavy, two-handed swing, the kind people often do on a t-handle, is a different creature - it somewhat mimics parts of the deadlift. But the good, old, regular swing and snatch, done as we usually do kettlebell ballistics around here, will really carry over very well for, IMHO, most people.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
-S-
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Sorry, I already forget what I meant!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes, it seemed to give me what I needed to jump into deadlifting.Just a ramble here, but I think many of us can talk about the "what the heck" effect from kettlebell training that isn't designed to particularly assist anything.
E.g., kettlebell snatches seems to improve just about everything. I've been at this for, give or take about 17 years now, and I can tell you that if I stop doing any powerlifts but devote a cycle to working on moderate weight kettlebell snatches, I will have no trouble moving back into a deadlift cycle, and my max deadlift won't have gone down all that much in the meantime. When I was a regular swimmer, my swimming times improved whenever I had snatches in my cycle along with my swimming.
IMHO, the heavy, two-handed swing, the kind people often do on a t-handle, is a different creature - it somewhat mimics parts of the deadlift. But the good, old, regular swing and snatch, done as we usually do kettlebell ballistics around here, will really carry over very well for, IMHO, most people.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
-S-
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I know you are a proficient deadlifter. I take your post to mean that the 1 handed swings have, generally speaking, the best carry over effect for deadlifts. Is this a correct interpretation of what you wrote?Just a ramble here, but I think many of us can talk about the "what the heck" effect from kettlebell training that isn't designed to particularly assist anything.
E.g., kettlebell snatches seems to improve just about everything. I've been at this for, give or take about 17 years now, and I can tell you that if I stop doing any powerlifts but devote a cycle to working on moderate weight kettlebell snatches, I will have no trouble moving back into a deadlift cycle, and my max deadlift won't have gone down all that much in the meantime. When I was a regular swimmer, my swimming times improved whenever I had snatches in my cycle along with my swimming.
IMHO, the heavy, two-handed swing, the kind people often do on a t-handle, is a different creature - it somewhat mimics parts of the deadlift. But the good, old, regular swing and snatch, done as we usually do kettlebell ballistics around here, will really carry over very well for, IMHO, most people.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
-S-
I've had to (maybe grudgingly) accept that in terms of full body pulling strength the deadlift seems to take things significantly beyond what I can do with kettlebells, and deadlifting strength is something I cannot put aside now that I know what it feels like! This is of course pushing me to reimagine what my goals and benefits are of the swings. I still have to say that I have personally not experienced any kind of exercise that safely gets my heart rate up so high so fast as swings according to the S&S method. Annoyingly (I mean this in a good way) in the kettlebell and cardio discussions, it seems to have come out that this kind of hard heart pumping effect may not count in fact as "real cardio" - the slow easy steady state stuff does instead. A bit frustrating. I never feel quite as alive as after an S&S workout - surely something miraculous is going on with my circulation and it's not just endorphins!
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Is not the 1st one more a "glycolytic cardio"? while the latter fully aerobic? I have noticed a lot of carry over between the hard heat pumping stuff and my ability to sprint on a bicycle, harder for longer but little effect on my ability to sustain a more moderate steady state, like hiking up hill. That one I get from the slow, steady, 45-60 minutes I put in on a bicycle
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
High Intensity Interval Cardio Training
Kettlebell Swing fall into the "Strint Training Category". Specifically, they are High Intensity Resistance Interval Training.
It's Real Cardio
High Intensity Interval Resistance Trainingn (HIIT) produces the same cardio training effect as High Intensity Interval Cardio Training (HIIRT)
1) Aerobic/Anaerobic Effect: Paradoxically, HIIT and HIIRT cardio training increases both your Aerobic and Anerobic capacity.
Steady State Cardio only increases your Aerobic Capacity.
Research, in one of several studies, demonstrated that HIIT increased VO2 Max more than Steady State Cardio...
(Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise (1996) 28, 1327-1330)
Forget the Fat-Burn Zone
The moderate-intensity endurance training program produced a significant increase in V02max (about 10%), but had no effect on anaerobic capacity. The high-intensity intermittent protocol improved V02max by about 14%; anaerobic capacity increased by a whopping 28%.
Dr. Tabata said, "The fact is that the rate of increase in V02max [14% for the high-intensity protocol - in only 6 weeks] is one of the highest ever reported in exercise science." (Note, the students participating in this study were members of varsity table tennis, baseball, basketball, soccer and swimming teams and already had relatively high aerobic capacities.)
Grasping Training Concepts
A monumental key to writing a great Training Program is understand Training Concepts. That means the same cardio vascular benefits can be achieved with Kettlebell Swings, as with Sprint Training. Both are intensive Resistance Protocols.
Summary
1) Research and anecdotal data demonstrate that HIIT and HIIRT increase VO2 Max. It's "Real Cardio".
2) HIIT and HIIRT increase Anaerobic Power; something Steady State Cardio does not.
3) HIIT and HIIRT also increases muscle mass. Steady State Cardio can minutely increase muscle mass. Too much Steady State interferes with Strength, Power, Speed and Hypertrophy Training.
4) HIIT and HIIRT are "Strength Training" for your cardiovascular system, heart and lungs.
5) HIIT and HIIRT increase your "Fat Burning Metabolism"; up to 9 time more than Steady State Cardio via Excess Post Oxygen Consumption (EPOC).
These are some not all of the benefits.
Kenny Croxdale
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Something's Wrong With This Picture
A well written and execute High Intensity Interval Cardio and/or High Intensity Interval Resistant Training Program increase your VO2 Max, which carries over to Steady State Cardio, Endurance Athletes.
However, if you are an Endurance Athlete, your training need to cater to your Sport. That mean, for Steady State distance events such as 5K, 10K, etc. that Steady State Cardio is necessary.
Kenny Croxdale
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The Point
Yes. However, the point is that High Intensity Interval Training provide an increase one aerobic component; an increase in VO2 Max.
Lactate Threshold
This is the other vital component necessary for Endurance Athletes. It require more Sport Specific Steady State Cardio Training in which the body become more efficient with overcoming lactate build up, which impedes performance.
Kenny Croxdale
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
While VO2max is trainable to some extent, especially among untrained individuals, it responds poorly to training among elite athletes who have several years consistent training under their belts.
- The VO2 Max Myth. House/Johnston 2014
I totally agree about Lactate Threshold and Sport Specific Steady State Cardio Training.
- The VO2 Max Myth. House/Johnston 2014
I totally agree about Lactate Threshold and Sport Specific Steady State Cardio Training.
I wouldn't call myself proficient. Adequate in that I can pull something reasonably heavy and not get hurt, but proficient is still in my future. If you want to see proficient, watch Ed Coan.
I didn't mean the 1 handed swing but rather the 1-handed snatch. For me, that's the best carryover. I have spent very little time doing 2-bell snatches and don't know where those might place in my list, but lockout position of the snatch does things for my back and shoulders that the swing does not, and those things make a difference in terms of what I perceive as carryover to my deadlift.
E.g., later this afternoon, as part of my off-season training, I'm going to either deadlift or 1-bell snatch - haven't decided which yet, but I'll be content with either for today.
-S-
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
AWESOME! AWESOME!
This is all exactly what I felt to be happening, but I didn't have the data on it. THANK YOU!
Your post is "post of the year" for me!!!
So it's High Intensity Interval Resistance Training that I'm doing with the 32kg or 40kg kettlebell swings, which covers all my cardio needs and even some strength needs! Exactly what appeared to be happening!
Okay, now I'm impatient to get back onto S&S (I had taken a break for a month!)
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
How many snatches do you do with what weight when you train?
I am just getting back into doing snatches, and at this point, I've been doing some deadlifting - sumo, not my competition style - and some snatches, maybe once a week each, and I've only had two snatch sessions. They are nothing to write home about - 16 kg, sets of 8-10 reps generally, and I think I got up to about 150 total reps at the most recent session. I will aim for about 300 reps per session before I try something heavier. NB that I am doing these explosively, using much more force than is necessary, throwing the bell behind me at the bottom, so I'm effectively making the weight heavier, something we all know about doing for swings from S&S. I am not concerned to move up in weight and won't until not only have I achieved a higher rep count but until I really feel like it's challenging to keep good form because the weight is too light.
-S-
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes
High Intensity Cardio Interval Training and High Intensity Resistance Training are an effective aerobic program for Strength, Power, and Speed Training.
However, as OffWidth noted, for Endurance Athletes, they also need to incorprate...
Lactate threshold training
The above article examine Lactate Threshold is, it importance for Endurance Athletes and how increase it (your Lactate Threshold).
Kenny Croxdale
mjg
Level 5 Valued Member
I see you have been reading Training for Alpinism...
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