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Kettlebell VWC questions
- Thread starter Bret S.
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NoahMarek
Level 5 Valued Member
@Ryan T No worries man. Your experiences are definitely valuable. What my thoughts are generally is that if technique is sound (Bret is a certified instructor), and you can be honest with yourself about when to stop each session, VWC is a perfectly sustainable program. Nothing inherently dangerous about snatching for high volumes as long as you are allowing for adequate soft tissue adaptation (aka recovering well between sessions ). If you aren’t recovering fully, then you are forcing adaptation to happen too quickly. Same process as if you were running really.
I am starting week 2 of a snatch protocol by Al Ciampa. A+A snatches rock for sure! In reference to the article you posted, it would be more like snatching a heavier bell emom for between 50 and 200 reps total althought rest periods aren’t fixed in the program. Naturally, you would start with lower volumes of closer to 50-80 and work up to the 200.
I am starting week 2 of a snatch protocol by Al Ciampa. A+A snatches rock for sure! In reference to the article you posted, it would be more like snatching a heavier bell emom for between 50 and 200 reps total althought rest periods aren’t fixed in the program. Naturally, you would start with lower volumes of closer to 50-80 and work up to the 200.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
More adaptations..
From 7/9 16k x 7r x 80 sets (40 mins)
From 7/16 16k x 7r x 80 sets (40 mins)
7/9 - HRM 157, Red zone time 55%
7/16 - HRM 152, Red zone time 35%
Recovery trajectory is steeper on the down slope in the 7/16 graph. Latest session while no picnic was much easier than the former. Overall HRM is down 5 BPM, red zone time is down 20 percentage points and the recovery is faster all in the time span of 7 days..
Edit: I think I'll repeat last week's sequence once more doing 40 sets Wed, 60 sets Fri and 80 sets Mon to compare results and solidify gains. After that I'll add a rep and start over at 30 - 40 sets.
From 7/9 16k x 7r x 80 sets (40 mins)
From 7/16 16k x 7r x 80 sets (40 mins)7/9 - HRM 157, Red zone time 55%
7/16 - HRM 152, Red zone time 35%
Recovery trajectory is steeper on the down slope in the 7/16 graph. Latest session while no picnic was much easier than the former. Overall HRM is down 5 BPM, red zone time is down 20 percentage points and the recovery is faster all in the time span of 7 days..
Edit: I think I'll repeat last week's sequence once more doing 40 sets Wed, 60 sets Fri and 80 sets Mon to compare results and solidify gains. After that I'll add a rep and start over at 30 - 40 sets.
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Thought I should admit this publicly, but I ordered VWC... @Bret S., your enthusiasum and progress is contagious. After reading through the protocols and testing, I'll see if I can balance something out like S&S work 3x per week and VWC 2x per week and swap out swings for a snatch sessions here and there. If it ends up being unmanageable, then I'll tuck it in my back pocket for sometime in the future. $10 is not a big investment.
@Bret S. You've recommended the Polar H10. Do you wear that over/under a shirt and is the strap comfortable?
@Bret S. You've recommended the Polar H10. Do you wear that over/under a shirt and is the strap comfortable?
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Start slowly and see if it fits you, a 12k bell is good to introduce your body to the program. I did get-ups yesterday with the 32k for the first time in 2 wks as I've been going lighter. The 32's felt light and no' tweaky' feeling in the shoulders.
You wear it on bare skin as the electrodes won't pick up the HR without skin contact and a little moisture. The strap isn't uncomfortable, the only thing that bugs me is my lats push the strap down, once it gets to just below the lats it still works so I leave it there.
It took me two years of training snatch Vo2 once per week to work up from 35 sets of 7 to 80 sets of 8 with the 16 kg. I too, like @taikei did not see much carryover to the 5 min snatch test but that wasn't why I was doing it. One, it was HUGE challenge and I wanted to be able to do it.
Two, at the time , because of my knee, I could not do any other cardio training so this was the best substitute I could find. My understanding was that the idea of the training was to max out your heart rate in 15 sec bursts and then the rest allowed you to maintain a HR average you could not do otherwise. I regularly ( at age 51) hit 185-200 in my hr at the end of the sessions.
BUT as I wrote, it took many month of cycling the times before I could hit even 50 set of 7 and started on my approach to 8's
I blogged every workout if you're interested in looking at the progressions
here's the goal workout achieved
Rifs Blog: 80 sets of 8 Max VO2.
It was one of the tougher things I have done
Two, at the time , because of my knee, I could not do any other cardio training so this was the best substitute I could find. My understanding was that the idea of the training was to max out your heart rate in 15 sec bursts and then the rest allowed you to maintain a HR average you could not do otherwise. I regularly ( at age 51) hit 185-200 in my hr at the end of the sessions.
BUT as I wrote, it took many month of cycling the times before I could hit even 50 set of 7 and started on my approach to 8's
I blogged every workout if you're interested in looking at the progressions
here's the goal workout achieved
Rifs Blog: 80 sets of 8 Max VO2.
It was one of the tougher things I have done
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Thanks @Rif for responding here, I saw the linked blog (very cool) but couldn't nail down dates to search for the full progression story. What is the date of the first VWC blog? From there I should be good..
I too am doing it for the challenge and the love of glycolytic training. It seems to be helping heal my shoulder or at least making it tougher and more elastic. I may be crazy but I'm going for a goal of 80 sets of 7 with the 20k in the 15:15 protocol. I want to see how much power production I can reach, at 59 I'm thinking now or never..
Ultimately I want to move from the raging river of VWC to the calm lake of heavy A+A snatching. From there I can settle in and live happily ever after... or not..
I found out about it in late June 2007 at the Level 2 where Kenneth gave his presentation on it. I started it the next week
Rifs Blog: Thank you Sir, may I have another?
Personally I would not do the 20 kg until I accomplished it with the 16 but that's just me
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LOL , well mental toughness for one. The training is brutal as much because it's so boring and snatching at that speed is just technically tough as well.
As far as general strength I would say it's more about work capacity training than anything. Mark O Madsen the Olympic wrestler did 80 sets of 8 reps with a 24 kg bell AFTER a full wrestling workout. So there's plenty of room to grow fo that too
I did some work with the 20 kg at times but the speed gained with this work is cool too. You do learn to move fast and explosively. That's lost if the bell is too heavy
As far as general strength I would say it's more about work capacity training than anything. Mark O Madsen the Olympic wrestler did 80 sets of 8 reps with a 24 kg bell AFTER a full wrestling workout. So there's plenty of room to grow fo that too
I did some work with the 20 kg at times but the speed gained with this work is cool too. You do learn to move fast and explosively. That's lost if the bell is too heavy
Thanks for sharing. After reading the book yesterday, I thought it would actually enhance the pursuit of A+A down the road. I know it primarily hits a different energy system, but it would expand the aerobic base as well. by expanding the aerobic base. Can't really imagine what it would be like to work all the protocols in the book as KJ suggests!
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
I found out about it in late June 2007 at the Level 2 where Kenneth gave his presentation on it. I started it the next week
Rifs Blog: Thank you Sir, may I have another?
Personally I would not do the 20 kg until I accomplished it with the 16 but that's just me
Thanks for the dates, I'll check it out. ..
As the plan goes for the 20 I won't start it until I own doing 80 sets with the 16, at 7 reps I've done 80 sets twice and will hit it once more on Monday. For the last 2 weeks I've hit 80 sets Mon, 40 sets Wed, 60 sets Fri then 80 sets again on Mon and so on.
After Mon if it's not fairly easy I'll repeat the cycle until it is, after that I'll add a rep and drop the sets to 30 and build up from there. It should be interesting to say the least.
When I feel like I own the 8 rep format with the 16 I'll increase weight to 20 and lower the reps, probably to 6 but who knows at this point. It's ambitious I know but that's the challenge and the fun in my mind.
Many thanks
I did a few of the others ( Boost, LATS) but this was the one I kept coming back to. I prefer short hard work bouts with short rest periods if I have to do interval training at all
One thing that took me so long was that I had a stair step approach to increasing the sets- no more than 3 weeks of increase before I backed off. And once I hit 50 sets of 7 I started increase the sets of 80 but from the back end first
i.e 40 sets 7 10 sets 8
35 sets 7 15 sets 8
and so on until I hit 10 sets of 7 and 40 sets 8. then I just went to 50 sets of 8 and started working on increasing total sets of 8 til I got to 80
this was the last workout before I hit 80 which I didn't film
One thing that took me so long was that I had a stair step approach to increasing the sets- no more than 3 weeks of increase before I backed off. And once I hit 50 sets of 7 I started increase the sets of 80 but from the back end first
i.e 40 sets 7 10 sets 8
35 sets 7 15 sets 8
and so on until I hit 10 sets of 7 and 40 sets 8. then I just went to 50 sets of 8 and started working on increasing total sets of 8 til I got to 80
this was the last workout before I hit 80 which I didn't film
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
That's an interesting strategy for stepping up to 8 rep sets, I might have to steal it
. I was going to start at the bottom of the hill again but this is a much better plan I think, at least in the psychological sense.The high rep snatching really seems to help my shoulders, they are more durable and capped out. So far I'm loving the program and thanks for your input as it seems there aren't many people around who have tried this protocol.
The video says it's unavailable.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Long video of Mon session , 16k x 7 x 80 sets (40 mins) It was about 85 degrees, luckily I had an air mover and fan cooling me off.. Trying to keep the cadence and power all the way through, easier said than done
@Hector G Can you please look at my snatch technique and tell me what I can do better? There's a side view around 10 and 22 mins,
Thanks in advance
@Hector G Can you please look at my snatch technique and tell me what I can do better? There's a side view around 10 and 22 mins,
Thanks in advance
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Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Some notable changes:
- Resting heart rate after 1 1/2 cups of coffee this morning is 48-50
- HR tops out lower while doing cluster sets
- Snatch power is increased (more explosive)
- Lower back feels more durable
7-18-18 16k x 7 reps x 40 sets
7-26-18 First time 16k @ 8 reps per set x 40 sets
- Resting heart rate after 1 1/2 cups of coffee this morning is 48-50
- HR tops out lower while doing cluster sets
- Snatch power is increased (more explosive)
- Lower back feels more durable
7-18-18 16k x 7 reps x 40 sets
7-26-18 First time 16k @ 8 reps per set x 40 sets
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@Bret S. I'm asking this question with all sincerity... Does KJ's claim on the front on the book-developing a heart of elastic steel seem a legit description? For the volume of work you're doing, you're still below your max HR and your resting HR looks pretty awesome. Curious about your thoughts.
Adam R Mundorf
Level 6 Valued Member
SMP 77: What Is Cardio With Kenneth Jay | Strength Matters
If you go to 33 minutes in there is some info about it. From what I've heard from others/read somewhere, he doesn't really believe in it too much anymore. He believes there are more optimal ways to work your VO2 Max and heart.
Here's his most recent work : "The Cardio Code" (Book Review)
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
So far so good, I'm a happy snatching fool!.
As far as I can tell it's doing great things for my cardio fitness and all I can say is that I feel great. Today I had a 1 1/2 hr heavy workout and couldn't believe it went that long when I looked at the clock. My energy level is way up as well as strength endurance.It seems that no subject is as hotly contested as cardio training and fitness, it's constantly changing and evolving. This ( VWC) is a little nugget that I saw great value in instinctively, it may not be in vogue anymore but I care not as it's doing great things for me. I'll bet that some years down the road this protocol will once again be popular as I've seen this happen many times over the years.
It's made my shoulders stronger for getups and my back stronger for heavy two hand swings, double snatch and heavy double cleans.
I'll stick with my instincts and happily plod along in this protocol and reap the benefits of it. This program is fun, productive and enjoyable for me.
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