Kettlebell VWC questions

[Rif]

KJ says you can stay with the 15:15 for a long time and work up to 9 reps x 80 sets, I'm going to stick with it for 2 reasons, #1 I'm stubborn and #2 I need the power and durability to advance my cause. If I didn't 'have' to do it I might have a different take.
I'm really enjoying the side effects of the program and as I said before MVO2 is not my top priority, having strong all terrain shoulders and a posterior chain that will not quit is what I need and the 15:15 is helping greatly. I'm very happy doing this program as I think it's literally the best one I've ever done pound for pound in terms of 'investment return and dividends gained'

The only person I know who could do 9 reps per 15 sec correctly was my wife Tracy.For most others I've seen 8 reps is the max to obtain even close to a lockout position. Now, for VMC purposes a perfect overhead isn't the priority but it gets to where it's not really a snatch for too many. 8 reps per 15 is plenty and remember the goal is really to take the HR to max, or close, for that time period.It's not really about the rep count per se but , good luck!

As I wrote, I still use the protocol weekly ( just with swings now) and have for the last 11 years. Definitely a keeper imo

 

[Bret S.]

That seems backwards to me. When I think about a bike ride, or a run, or a snatch test, I'm thinking that my work capacity, or how much I can get done in a finite amount of time, is determined (among other things, such as strength) by how much energy I can produce for the working muscles. My metabolite tolerance, specifically lactate tolerance, figures into fatigue management. Is there something I'm missing?

KJ explains it using as an example 2 athletes who are equal by all other measures except one, one can tolerate 24 millimoles and the other can tolerate only 15 mm of lactic acid, this means that the first person will be able to exercise for a longer time before having to stop. That's why he links lactate tolerance with work capacity. Capacity defined as going until the muscles literally stop working due to lactic acid buildup.

 

[Bret S.]

I'm finding your reports on the program interesting and I'm happy for your successes, however I'm half expecting you to self-combust from all the glycolytic training, in today's environment of encouraging AGT for so many reasons! (Not really, but it's just in such stark contrast to the Strong Endurance approach.) Curious, does it feel like you're on the same path as all the CrossFit metcon-ers? It seems like similar training, metabolically...

I understand how you see this playing out but I'm only doing VWC twice weekly now and it's in line with the type of training I'm used to doing for decades in MA and it's the same frequency. The other training I do is nowhere near as harsh, in fact I do most everything else in the A+A spirit. The clusters I do are like giant sets in the A+A format (I know it's not the same) and the other things like ladders all involve a 'pumping down' phase before I go again. On top of that I also do straight A+A training.
My training style is very instinctive and adjustable, listening to what my body tells me and making changes or adding rest days as needed are very important to me.

 

[Bret S.]

My equation looks more like this:
M production + M tolerance = Work Capacity + Fatigue Management

With recurring training at or close to ventilatory threshold the mitochondria become better at processing pyruvate qualitatively - nearly 2x the throughput of sedentary folk and higher than trained people who do not train at higher intensity. This is where alactic glycolysis kicks in - providing approx 2x the ATP of fat oxidation.

This higher rate also allows for faster lactate clearance and reduced buildup in the first place, the two are closely linked. At the same mitochondrial density, the person who includes high intensity training will have higher work capacity/higher ventilatory threshold. Lactate levels in an absolute sense don't really matter, the clearance rate does.

There oftentimes seem to be unrecognized factors of mitochondrial function in that many only consider the fat oxidation and PCr recovery aspects.

I'd agree with you about the overall levels and what sort of recovery might be needed on VWC, but a lot of factors go into this. Using a light enough load being a major part of it - enough to drive the HR to target with moderate rep count, not enough to overload your current recovery capacity.

Its an interesting program. While it should increase work capacity and lower resting HR (and it is) I have to wonder if more traditional locomotion type exercise selection might not be more useful - is tough to think of day to day physical activities where you need that sort of confined endurance - that don't involve walking, running, stairs, hills etc. While you'll still get a boost in endurance, you aren't getting the lower body conditioning.

When I've played out my current sandbag park bench fun, I might have to swap out the sand for rubber mulch and give this a try. I can see it doing good things but some of those sessions are an hour or longer - would be tough to find the time. And then you'd have to compare to faster training protocol like the typical HIIT.

VWC on the conditioning side as I understand it is partly about increasing the stroke volume, venous blood flow to the heart and reducing aortic back pressure thereby increasing the volume and efficiency of the pump.

On the metabolic side I know of the mitochondrial density connection but have not studied it in detail. The aim with VWC is to increase the speed at which lactate is produced and also the speed of the mitigation of lactate and the byproducts of its production.

I agree that the format won't have the same effect as walking and running, that's why I'll be adding those back in despite the hot humid weather as per @Rif 's suggestion. When I think about it i'd have to say walking and light running in the heat will be much easier than doing a 60 or 80 set VWC session in hot conditions.

The longest session of VWC is 40 mins not including warmup and cool down. For me the warmup is sets of 5 snatches with 12k until I'm ready to go (maybe 5 mins avg) and cool down is usually 10-12 mins.

 

[Bret S.]

The only person I know who could do 9 reps per 15 sec correctly was my wife Tracy.For most others I've seen 8 reps is the max to obtain even close to a lockout position. Now, for VMC purposes a perfect overhead isn't the priority but it gets to where it's not really a snatch for too many. 8 reps per 15 is plenty and remember the goal is really to take the HR to max, or close, for that time period.It's not really about the rep count per se but , good luck!

As I wrote, I still use the protocol weekly ( just with swings now) and have for the last 11 years. Definitely a keeper imo

I'll see where this leads me and make adjustments as I go, it's a fun (most of the time) and exciting program and new side benefits keep popping up, as I said before I'm a GT junky of sorts but also enjoy calm and zen type training. I agree there will always a place for this protocol

 

[Ryan T]

More thoughts...

Since I started doing VWC in combo with increasing load in S&S, I've noticed a couple things:

• My general work capacity has increased dramatically and steady strength gains. I posted in another of @Bret S. thread that I was able to throw kayaks around one armed in and out of water, in and out of the straps, pull them around. All this was on a hot day after mowing two yards.
• My elasticity when loading my hamstrings and snapping the bell up to the lock out has greatly increased.
• My S&S practice has improved, however perhaps it would have improved anyway (or more) if I had dedicated those days to S&S as well. I'm not sure, but I can at least say that it hasn't hurt anything and at least allows for progression.

Things I like so far about VWC:

• Huge contrast from the typical kettlebell training I've been doing for the last 6 months. Something about the speed and the lighter load is enjoyable.
• I never feel the burn, at least not at 12kg. Actually, even though my HR is pretty high it never feels unmanageable.
• It has helped me start to learn double breathing for snatch technique.
• It has helped me clean up my technique some. I've been really working hard on implementing GN's method that he has a video on from the old Kettlbell Secrets days. And by the way, when I nail it I can finish the set of 7 reps in about 13 seconds.
• I can pass the talk test for a long time. The only thing that starts to take me out is losing power.
• I feel thoroughly worked but not drained. Granted again, I am at a lower weight and the highest work load I've done is 60x7 @12kg. After about 10 min of stretching or walking around I feel mostly recovered.

Things I don't like about VWC:

• @Rif has pointed this out, but chasing the clock can get old and for me sometimes a little stressful. I don't know that I could accomplish 80x8 at any load. I've done it on accident here and there when I miscounted my reps.
• It stinks when you feel like you've been at it for a long time during your session and you've really only done 20% of that day's work.
• A solid playlist of music is required for me to maintain my sanity.

Going forward, I feel like I might want to try to roll through all the protocols listed in the book just to see what happens. I feel like it would make me a cardio beast, and if you look at the protocols, there is heavier work down the road too. I got my butt handed to me a while back when I went to a kettlebell class at my first instructors gym. It was embarrasing and I want to return to reclaim my honor in the next couple months.

We get so focused on the best, new or most efficient program, that we forget to experiement and see what our body responds to.

 

[Bret S.]

More thoughts...

Since I started doing VWC in combo with increasing load in S&S, I've noticed a couple things:

• My general work capacity has increased dramatically and steady strength gains. I posted in another of @Bret S. thread that I was able to throw kayaks around one armed in and out of water, in and out of the straps, pull them around. All this was on a hot day after mowing two yards.
• My elasticity when loading my hamstrings and snapping the bell up to the lock out has greatly increased.
• My S&S practice has improved, however perhaps it would have improved anyway (or more) if I had dedicated those days to S&S as well. I'm not sure, but I can at least say that it hasn't hurt anything and at least allows for progression.

Things I like so far about VWC:

• Huge contrast from the typical kettlebell training I've been doing for the last 6 months. Something about the speed and the lighter load is enjoyable.
• I never feel the burn, at least not at 12kg. Actually, even though my HR is pretty high it never feels unmanageable.
• It has helped me start to learn double breathing for snatch technique.
• It has helped me clean up my technique some. I've been really working hard on implementing GN's method that he has a video on from the old Kettlbell Secrets days. And by the way, when I nail it I can finish the set of 7 reps in about 13 seconds.
• I can pass the talk test for a long time. The only thing that starts to take me out is losing power.
• I feel thoroughly worked but not drained. Granted again, I am at a lower weight and the highest work load I've done is 60x7 @12kg. After about 10 min of stretching or walking around I feel mostly recovered.

Things I don't like about VWC:

• @Rif has pointed this out, but chasing the clock can get old and for me sometimes a little stressful. I don't know that I could accomplish 80x8 at any load. I've done it on accident here and there when I miscounted my reps.
• It stinks when you feel like you've been at it for a long time during your session and you've really only done 20% of that day's work.
• A solid playlist of music is required for me to maintain my sanity.

Going forward, I feel like I might want to try to roll through all the protocols listed in the book just to see what happens. I feel like it would make me a cardio beast, and if you look at the protocols, there is heavier work down the road too. I got my butt handed to me a while back when I went to a kettlebell class at my first instructors gym. It was embarrasing and I want to return to reclaim my honor in the next couple months.

We get so focused on the best, new or most efficient program, that we forget to experiement and see what our body responds to.

It's definitely a must to have good music going. I use a timer called Timer Pro - Workouts Timer (author VGFIT LLC) from Play store, with it I can pre-set timed workouts, I have it pre-set for 40, 60, and 80 set sessions and love the convenience, it also counts down sets so you can see where you are without wasting energy thinking about it.
Speaking of WTH effects yesterday late afternoon I went to the beach with my GF and was jumping from rock to rock, I couldn't believe how strong and springy my calves felt. To think there aren't lower body benefits in this program is a mistake, they are definitely there.

 

[Steve W.]

The only person I know who could do 9 reps per 15 sec correctly was my wife Tracy

I've worked up to 16kg x 9 x 80 sets, I believe "correctly." However, it was very frantic and mentally stressful. There is a cadence test to determine the correct cadence with a given bell, and based on my experience (I started with 16kg x 7 reps, and eventually worked up to 24kg x 7 x 64 sets), I think the sweet spot is 7 or 8 reps/set -- a fast cadence, but not frenzy fast.

If you can get 9 consistently, or you can get much over 32 reps in the last minute of the cadence test with a given bell, I think it's time to move up to a heavier bell, rather than do 9 reps/set. 8kg may be too big of a jump, although after doing 9 reps with 16kg, 7 reps with 24 felt slow. Over time, I've come to appreciate the intermediate sizes of bells (I even bought a pair of 26kg bells recently). If you're just doing S&S or ROP, 8kg jumps are perfectly workable, sometimes with a little creativity. But for a lot of complexes and higher volume/density work, being able to more precisely calibrate the load is very useful.

Keep in mind, all my experience with VWC is 15:15, so I can't speak to rotating through other plans in the book.

 

[banzaiengr]

I'm finding your reports on the program interesting and I'm happy for your successes, however I'm half expecting you to self-combust from all the glycolytic training, in today's environment of encouraging AGT for so many reasons! (Not really, but it's just in such stark contrast to the Strong Endurance approach.) Curious, does it feel like you're on the same path as all the CrossFit metcon-ers? It seems like similar training, metabolically...

I've gotten the same thought looking into this VWC protocol. What I really find interesting is that Dr. Jay did this at RKC when Pavel was there and was then made a Senior Instructor. Pavel comes over to StrongFirst and we are seeing a distinct contrast. Not to say that opinions and ideas can't change over time and with more study.

The similarity to X-fit I think though is that in X-fit from what I've seen form is not thought of and I think that there are as many injuries from poor form as from met-con overtraining. But that is just my thought, no numbers to back it.

 

[banzaiengr]

To add to my previous post.

Remembering that Dr. Jay recommends a strength program in conjunction to VWC I would think that needs some thought.

I'm not saying that doing S&S three times per week and VWC twice per week or even vice-versa is wrong. But that would be one heck of a lot of volume on the posterior chain with both snatches and swings.

What are other's thoughts?

 

[Bret S.]

I've worked up to 16kg x 9 x 80 sets, I believe "correctly." However, it was very frantic and mentally stressful. There is a cadence test to determine the correct cadence with a given bell, and based on my experience (I started with 16kg x 7 reps, and eventually worked up to 24kg x 7 x 64 sets), I think the sweet spot is 7 or 8 reps/set -- a fast cadence, but not frenzy fast.

If you can get 9 consistently, or you can get much over 32 reps in the last minute of the cadence test with a given bell, I think it's time to move up to a heavier bell, rather than do 9 reps/set. 8kg may be too big of a jump, although after doing 9 reps with 16kg, 7 reps with 24 felt slow. Over time, I've come to appreciate the intermediate sizes of bells (I even bought a pair of 26kg bells recently). If you're just doing S&S or ROP, 8kg jumps are perfectly workable, sometimes with a little creativity. But for a lot of complexes and higher volume/density work, being able to more precisely calibrate the load is very useful.

Keep in mind, all my experience with VWC is 15:15, so I can't speak to rotating through other plans in the book.

Hey Steve, I concur on the 9 rep plan being tough and I'll stumble over that bridge when I get to it, I was thinking more in terms of longevity in the protocol as a good base builder. If I can keep widening my base then the jump to 20k bell will go much smoother on my shoulder, that's the madness behind my method anyway

 

[Steve W.]

BTW, here's my personal experience with the sustainability of VWC (at least the 15:15 program):
I did not use a heart rate monitor, but experienced many of the same subjective effects as @Bret S. I felt generally very "springy," and moderately strenuous everyday activities seemed more effortless.

I was also able to make continuous and fairly rapid progress in the VWC sessions themselves.

So why did I stop? Was it a case of "it worked so well I stopped doing it" (Dan John phrase)?

Well, one factor was that I found the pace to not be enjoyable, and had a lot of problems with sweat management that made the sessions unpleasant, which is obviously subjective/individual, but became a big drawback for me.

The other was that I got sick. I developed a very bad and persistent respiratory infection that took a long time to fully recover from. Was there any link to VWC? No way to tell, but I haven't resumed VWC since.

 

[Bret S.]

To add to my previous post.

Remembering that Dr. Jay recommends a strength program in conjunction to VWC I would think that needs some thought.

I'm not saying that doing S&S three times per week and VWC twice per week or even vice-versa is wrong. But that would be one heck of a lot of volume on the posterior chain with both snatches and swings.

What are other's thoughts?

I suppose you can't argue that VWC isn't a 'metcon' as that's one of the training objectives laid out for conditioning in the book. But I will say that VWC is so much more than that, with a road mapped, well thought out progression that will take you to a very high level of conditioning. I'm like a guy who just bought a new Corvette, I just want to get it on the road and see what she can do . In 10 years the option window for me will be closed, so why not go for it?

Regarding training volume everyone has different tolerance levels, mine seem to be fairly high still considering my age. I have a high spirit and have to temper it somewhat but I'm also very pragmatic about the whole thing. It's like framing a house in the sense that I may concentrate my work in a specific area of the structure which could lead to a myopic viewpoint on the whole project, to counter myopia I have to step back now and then to assess the structure in it's entirety and make the adjustments necessary to build the most solid house that I can.
So this is how I approach my training as well, I have goals and yet maintain total flexibility, if I see a small fire starting I make adjustments and put it out while eliminating the reason for the fire in the first place. That's why I fear not when it comes to volume etc. I have learned to trust my instincts.

 

[Ryan T]

To add to my previous post.

Remembering that Dr. Jay recommends a strength program in conjunction to VWC I would think that needs some thought.

I'm not saying that doing S&S three times per week and VWC twice per week or even vice-versa is wrong. But that would be one heck of a lot of volume on the posterior chain with both snatches and swings.

What are other's thoughts?

This is a great observation. The best I can say the low weight of VWC along with waving S&S practice, i.e., heavier days after a day of rest etc... seem to be working fine. I have minimal or no soreness in my hamstrings. Heavier TGUs are certainly strength work for me, which don't specifically target the posterior chain.

My knees have been giving me some trouble; symptoms seem consistent with femoral patellar syndrome (runner's knee), but they have been sensitive on and off since I took a 4 mile walk after an S&S session a few months back. That's frustrating, but I don't think it's due to the nature of my current program. I've removed goblet squats for now and I'm taking some extra days off in an attempt to give the knees some rest.

 

[Bret S.]

This is a great observation. The best I can say the low weight of VWC along with waving S&S practice, i.e., heavier days after a day of rest etc... seem to be working fine. I have minimal or no soreness in my hamstrings. Heavier TGUs are certainly strength work for me, which don't specifically target the posterior chain.

My knees have been giving me some trouble; symptoms seem consistent with femoral patellar syndrome (runner's knee), but they have been sensitive on and off since I took a 4 mile walk after an S&S session a few months back. That's frustrating, but I don't think it's due to the nature of my current program. I've removed goblet squats for now and I'm taking some extra days off in an attempt to give the knees some rest.

A Vitamin C dose of 2 grams three times per day will act as a great anti-inflammatory, avoid NSAIDS like the plague as they interfere with tendon repair. The vitamin C keeps me from getting sore and helps with a number of other things. I couldn't do the volume of training I do without the Vitamin C, at least not without training related consequences developing over time.

Vitamins for the win!!

 

[banzaiengr]

@Bret S. and @Ryan T, seems like you guys have yourselves dialed in and know what's best. As Ryan stated, I was just making an observation. Most likely because my lower back is bothering me today.

A place to whine, I'll do it here. I can't even realistically mow my lawn anymore. Had a kid doing it but as it seems to be the deal now days he was not reliable. Said the heck with it last night and mowed it myself. Today my left heal is as painful as when the boot was removed. My right lower back and hip feel like there's a knife in it. Frustrating when things like this happen that I don't even see coming. I suspect the back is due favoring of my left leg but can't seem to get any answers.

Anyway, at least it's fun to read about folks who are making progress.

 

[banzaiengr]

Viking Warrior Training...

 

[Ryan T]

@Bret S. and @Ryan T, seems like you guys have yourselves dialed in and know what's best. As Ryan stated, I was just making an observation. Most likely because my lower back is bothering me today.

A place to whine, I'll do it here. I can't even realistically mow my lawn anymore. Had a kid doing it but as it seems to be the deal now days he was not reliable. Said the heck with it last night and mowed it myself. Today my left heal is as painful as when the boot was removed. My right lower back and hip feel like there's a knife in it. Frustrating when things like this happen that I don't even see coming. I suspect the back is due favoring of my left leg but can't seem to get any answers.

Anyway, at least it's fun to read about folks who are making progress.

What has happened that causes activities like mowing a lawn to have such detrimental effects?

 

[Ryan T]

@Bret S. and @Ryan T, seems like you guys have yourselves dialed in and know what's best. As Ryan stated, I was just making an observation. Most likely because my lower back is bothering me today.

I'm not sure that I have intuitively dialed it in completely, but I am being pretty watchful for any fires as @Bret S. said. If I start experiencing any issues, I'll either try to examine my technique or implementations of the programs or abandon VWC and return to S&S alone for a while.

 

[Bret S.]

@Bret S. and @Ryan T, seems like you guys have yourselves dialed in and know what's best. As Ryan stated, I was just making an observation. Most likely because my lower back is bothering me today.

A place to whine, I'll do it here. I can't even realistically mow my lawn anymore. Had a kid doing it but as it seems to be the deal now days he was not reliable. Said the heck with it last night and mowed it myself. Today my left heal is as painful as when the boot was removed. My right lower back and hip feel like there's a knife in it. Frustrating when things like this happen that I don't even see coming. I suspect the back is due favoring of my left leg but can't seem to get any answers.

Anyway, at least it's fun to read about folks who are making progress.

Hmmm.. Sorry to hear that, I suppose that episode will get filed in the 'I won't make that mistake again' file. I know I sound like the vitamin guy but I've done lots of reading and research on the subject, there are decades of proven vitamin therapies involving high doses to address a plethora of maladies. I'm sure you've read about the 'dangers' of vitamins yet they kill no one, while the purveyors of the fake stories kill people by the thousands yearly.
Look hard into the nutrients needed for optimal repair of tissue at the cellular level, you may be surprised how well you can feel. The US RDA is a joke. There is light at the end of the tunnel, hang in brother ..^^