Kettlebell VWC questions

[Ryan T]

SMP 77: What Is Cardio With Kenneth Jay | Strength Matters

If you go to 33 minutes in there is some info about it. From what I've heard from others/read somewhere, he doesn't really believe in it too much anymore. He believes there are more optimal ways to work your VO2 Max and heart.

Here's his most recent work : "The Cardio Code" (Book Review)

Thanks @Adam Mundorf. I've listened to SMP before but didn't realize the had him interviewed him before. I'll check it out. Have you read The Cardio Code?

@Bret S. Thanks for the response. It great you've had these carryover effects as to other areas. Perhaps the takeaway for is (as it always is) to learn what's right for my body as it applies to health and my goals.

 

[Bret S.]

@Bret S. Thanks for the response. It great you've had these carryover effects as to other areas. Perhaps the takeaway for is (as it always is) to learn what's right for my body as it applies to health and my goals.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I've never been a proponent of group think, especially regarding my own health and exercise choices. Polling what's popular in my mind is just being intellectually lazy. There are worlds of great programs and methods of training going back 1000's of years, just because thinking is 'new' or 'the latest' doesn't necessarily mean it's better. I think Pavel or someone else has a blog on that subject.

But, in the end it's your bus and you drive it, sometimes polling passengers can be informational but nobody knows your bus like you do, so drive it as you see fit and fear not.

 

[Bret S.]

Today I lost my mind and did 60 sets @8 reps, it wasn't too terrible and I had more.. But why push it?!?!!

From 7-20 16k x 7r x 60 sets


From today 7-28 16k x 8r x 60 sets

I really missed the extra 1.87 second rest in each block. I think the 158 HRM was a spike as I choked on my own spit in the last few mins, it was probably 155-156. I may go for 80 sets Mon or Tues unless I come to my senses first..

@Ryan T I've been using the Polar OH1 for a few sessions and really like it as I can't stand the chest strap, it functions beautifully and is much more comfortable to wear. The H10 will be my backup

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

Have you read The Cardio Code?

I have not but I've heard it's excellent.

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

Thanks @Adam Mundorf. I've listened to SMP before but didn't realize the had him interviewed him before. I'll check it out. Have you read The Cardio Code?

I just got this from Kenneth Jay :

I discuss it in the Cardio Code book. Basically, if you insist on using the KB as a vo2 training tool the best protocols are in VWC. It's no where near as good as running/rowing/cycling/skiing.

 

[Bret S.]

I just got this from Kenneth Jay :

I discuss it in the Cardio Code book. Basically, if you insist on using the KB as a vo2 training tool the best protocols are in VWC. It's no where near as good as running/rowing/cycling/skiing.

As I understand it a trained person can't really improve MVO2, it's pretty much genetic, however there are many factors affecting the efficiency of the body's O2 uptake.

There are many other benefits of the VWC protocol. I myself am mostly doing the protocol for power production, strength and body durability. You should check out the book, it's cheap on Kindle. I highly recommend the program especially if you've never done anything like it (which I have not), I was blown away by all the positives from it.

I'm bummed the Cardio Code isn't on kindle

 

[Ryan T]

I just got this from Kenneth Jay :

I discuss it in the Cardio Code book. Basically, if you insist on using the KB as a vo2 training tool the best protocols are in VWC. It's no where near as good as running/rowing/cycling/skiing.

When I was rowing, the trainer I had at the time put me on a VO2 max training protocol and it was brutal for a number of reasons. Part of it was I didn't really have much of an aerobic base yet. I will get back to rowing at some point!

 

[Bret S.]

PR! 80 sets x 8 reps 640 reps 22,400 lbs lifted

Definitely challenging but got it done, the last 20 sets really test lungs and guns.

After hitting 60 sets on 7-28 I was going to rest another day but had a gut feeling I was there, this is absolutely fantastic training

From 7-23: 80 sets x 7 reps 560 reps 19,600 lbs lifted


This is surprising! The actual time spent in the red zone (zone 5) went down by around 2 minutes despite adding an additional 80 reps (2800 lbs lifted) in the same time frame..

 

[banzaiengr]

Very late to this conversation but find it interesting.

What I haven't found is anything regarding the sustainability of VWC. But with the fact that you are generally using a weight which is most likely 20 lb. lighter than a bell that you own I would be interested in trying it out to see for myself. My next thought would be on the general strength program that one is using in conjunction with VWC as is recommended in the book.

I would liken it to a very good strength program that the trainee is using to increase strength, be it 3 or 4 days per week. Let's just use a 3x/week program that consists of bench, squats, and deadlifts. If you are really pushing this and then add say 2 days per week where you run at a 80-85% of your HR max then I would say that for 90% of folks that is not sustainable. Eventually you'll see the training "hangover" that Brett mentioned. Next you'll see the amount of weight you are using on your lifting days start to plateau or even decrease. Now I'm talking about a strength program where you are using 90% max on at least one day per week and never less than 75%.

Of course this is all considering that everything else is in place. If you've got a big work load, family commitments, or other stressors then it could be worse. Then again, if everything is in place and you are young and eating correctly it may take a much longer time for it to catch up to you. Just my opinion.

Everyone is different and it will be interesting to me to see what happens here. Personally, I would really temper my general strength training during a VWC cycle. I would expect to lose a little strength. But if you are training to increase VO2 max then nothing is hurt. It's tough for the "average" cat to have more than a couple goals in place and not see some other area of his training decline. It just happens. That's why I think one really has to figure out what is the goal.

As far as comparing this to Maffetone's ideas and A+A they are apples and oranges. Maffetone's 180-age as a training heart rate is to keep you in a zone that for all intensive purposes should not cause overtraining and will teach your body to use fat as fuel. The same when training in an A+A style. You are giving yourself time to rest between sets, keeping the HR lower, and therefore using a heavier weight. The idea being that you will get stronger with the heavier snatches, you will increase your endurance and work capacity, and by adding some LSD aerobics at a MAF HR increase your aerobic capacity with the benefit of heart and lung health.

Generally the A+A style "should" be a more sustainable method that would not cause injury or overtraining.

And generally by training in a HIIT method such as VWC you "might" see some periods of "training hangover" such as Brett talks about.

@Rif has the most experience so I would be interested in his input on this. But did you notice that Rif was training VWC "once" per week. I believe this was a very good decision made by someone with loads of training experience.

Another remark is using the VWC to increase snatch test results. I do know there is a TSC participant who has good luck training snatch cadence to increase his numbers. So given a 5 minute test that may have some use. For the SSST I think it just comes down to more of a mental thing. Just my opinion and that and a dollar will get you coffee anywhere but Starbucks.

 

[Bret S.]

Very late to this conversation but find it interesting.

What I haven't found is anything regarding the sustainability of VWC. But with the fact that you are generally using a weight which is most likely 20 lb. lighter than a bell that you own I would be interested in trying it out to see for myself. My next thought would be on the general strength program that one is using in conjunction with VWC as is recommended in the book.

I would liken it to a very good strength program that the trainee is using to increase strength, be it 3 or 4 days per week. Let's just use a 3x/week program that consists of bench, squats, and deadlifts. If you are really pushing this and then add say 2 days per week where you run at a 80-85% of your HR max then I would say that for 90% of folks that is not sustainable. Eventually you'll see the training "hangover" that Brett mentioned. Next you'll see the amount of weight you are using on your lifting days start to plateau or even decrease. Now I'm talking about a strength program where you are using 90% max on at least one day per week and never less than 75%.

Of course this is all considering that everything else is in place. If you've got a big work load, family commitments, or other stressors then it could be worse. Then again, if everything is in place and you are young and eating correctly it may take a much longer time for it to catch up to you. Just my opinion.

Everyone is different and it will be interesting to me to see what happens here. Personally, I would really temper my general strength training during a VWC cycle. I would expect to lose a little strength. But if you are training to increase VO2 max then nothing is hurt. It's tough for the "average" cat to have more than a couple goals in place and not see some other area of his training decline. It just happens. That's why I think one really has to figure out what is the goal.

As far as comparing this to Maffetone's ideas and A+A they are apples and oranges. Maffetone's 180-age as a training heart rate is to keep you in a zone that for all intensive purposes should not cause overtraining and will teach your body to use fat as fuel. The same when training in an A+A style. You are giving yourself time to rest between sets, keeping the HR lower, and therefore using a heavier weight. The idea being that you will get stronger with the heavier snatches, you will increase your endurance and work capacity, and by adding some LSD aerobics at a MAF HR increase your aerobic capacity with the benefit of heart and lung health.

Generally the A+A style "should" be a more sustainable method that would not cause injury or overtraining.

And generally by training in a HIIT method such as VWC you "might" see some periods of "training hangover" such as Brett talks about.

@Rif has the most experience so I would be interested in his input on this. But did you notice that Rif was training VWC "once" per week. I believe this was a very good decision made by someone with loads of training experience.

Another remark is using the VWC to increase snatch test results. I do know there is a TSC participant who has good luck training snatch cadence to increase his numbers. So given a 5 minute test that may have some use. For the SSST I think it just comes down to more of a mental thing. Just my opinion and that and a dollar will get you coffee anywhere but Starbucks.

Haha, Starbucks gets none of my cash

You raise some good points about frequency with VWC, I started hard and fast with it and didn't look back, the real wall I hit is the high temps of summer.
When I first started with the protocol it was with the 12k as a nice primer and proceeded to the 16k, feeling strong I kept adding sets until I hit 80 @7 and then 8 reps. This is not what I would recommend, it's just my own 'irrational exuberance' in play. My hangovers came from too much volume/density as you said and the strategy is not sustainable. Now with the heat of summer I've dropped back to 2 sessions/wk usually.
Nearly all my strength training is with sub-max loads in the 70-80% range, I'm more interested in strength endurance coupled with aerobic endurance as my prime training objective. I'm used to lots of volume in training as it feels right for me.

Some WTH effects:

• Better overall strength/aerobic endurance
• Improved elasticity
• More spring in posterior muscles
• Healthier stronger/bigger shoulders
• Strength increase in 1H swings
• RHR drop from 60 to 48
• Stronger getup OH
• Stronger grip
• Stronger cleans
• More upper forearm development
• Less body fat
• Much better snatch technique

Stronger springier calves are also a benefit. I can't speak to limit strength as I don't train for it. Here's a view of this month's training from Polar app

 

[North Coast Miller]

As I understand it a trained person can't really improve MVO2, it's pretty much genetic, however there are many factors affecting the efficiency of the body's O2 uptake.

There are many other benefits of the VWC protocol. I myself am mostly doing the protocol for power production, strength and body durability. You should check out the book, it's cheap on Kindle. I highly recommend the program especially if you've never done anything like it (which I have not), I was blown away by all the positives from it.

I'm bummed the Cardio Code isn't on kindle

Sounds like from this and your other thread you're seeing a solid improvement in lactate clearance, which is something I'm always interested in. Mitochondrial density is one factor, but I've come across a number of studies showing qualitative improvements in mitochondrial metabolism/alactic glycolysis - and this effect is possible only by training at higher intensity/closer to and over the lactate threshold.

Not only does it supply more ATP over unit time than lipid oxidation, it helps clear metabolites from anaerobic glycolysis at a faster rate.

 

[Rif]

Very late to this conversation but find it interesting.

What I haven't found is anything regarding the sustainability of VWC. But with the fact that you are generally using a weight which is most likely 20 lb. lighter than a bell that you own I would be interested in trying it out to see for myself. My next thought would be on the general strength program that one is using in conjunction with VWC as is recommended in the book.

I would liken it to a very good strength program that the trainee is using to increase strength, be it 3 or 4 days per week. Let's just use a 3x/week program that consists of bench, squats, and deadlifts. If you are really pushing this and then add say 2 days per week where you run at a 80-85% of your HR max then I would say that for 90% of folks that is not sustainable. Eventually you'll see the training "hangover" that Brett mentioned. Next you'll see the amount of weight you are using on your lifting days start to plateau or even decrease. Now I'm talking about a strength program where you are using 90% max on at least one day per week and never less than 75%.

Of course this is all considering that everything else is in place. If you've got a big work load, family commitments, or other stressors then it could be worse. Then again, if everything is in place and you are young and eating correctly it may take a much longer time for it to catch up to you. Just my opinion.

Everyone is different and it will be interesting to me to see what happens here. Personally, I would really temper my general strength training during a VWC cycle. I would expect to lose a little strength. But if you are training to increase VO2 max then nothing is hurt. It's tough for the "average" cat to have more than a couple goals in place and not see some other area of his training decline. It just happens. That's why I think one really has to figure out what is the goal.

As far as comparing this to Maffetone's ideas and A+A they are apples and oranges. Maffetone's 180-age as a training heart rate is to keep you in a zone that for all intensive purposes should not cause overtraining and will teach your body to use fat as fuel. The same when training in an A+A style. You are giving yourself time to rest between sets, keeping the HR lower, and therefore using a heavier weight. The idea being that you will get stronger with the heavier snatches, you will increase your endurance and work capacity, and by adding some LSD aerobics at a MAF HR increase your aerobic capacity with the benefit of heart and lung health.

Generally the A+A style "should" be a more sustainable method that would not cause injury or overtraining.

And generally by training in a HIIT method such as VWC you "might" see some periods of "training hangover" such as Brett talks about.

@Rif has the most experience so I would be interested in his input on this. But did you notice that Rif was training VWC "once" per week. I believe this was a very good decision made by someone with loads of training experience.

Another remark is using the VWC to increase snatch test results. I do know there is a TSC participant who has good luck training snatch cadence to increase his numbers. So given a 5 minute test that may have some use. For the SSST I think it just comes down to more of a mental thing. Just my opinion and that and a dollar will get you coffee anywhere but Starbucks.

Yes I only did it once per week as I saw it as a way to do some cardiovascular training during a time when my knee would not allow any conventional cardio.

I did it consistently for three years before I made the 80 set goal then continued on for another three years using 20-30 min cycles as the mainstay workout.

When I switched my focus to swing training I still ( and still do continued 15:15 training with one arm swings as my second swing day

I don't believe though, that VWC is the best way to prepare for the snatch test at all and has more than a few drawbacks, the main being people learning incorrect pace for the test and not pausing with the bell overhead. It can cause many bad habits that are hard to break

The original idea of VWC was as a 6-8 week training phase just to bring up Max Vo2, not as a part of a regular training cycle. Once a week worked very well.

Hope this helps

 

[MikeTheBear]

As I understand it a trained person can't really improve MVO2, it's pretty much genetic,

At the risk of being overly pedantic and technical (gee, I've never said that before ), I understand that each person has a genetically determined "absolute max" VO2max. However, other than truly elite athletes, I doubt many of us are cracking that ceiling. Give me an overweight sedentary person and I can increase their VO2max without any training - provided the person is willing to lose weight. The VO2max formula factors bodyweight into the equation, so everything else being constant, as weight goes down, VO2max goes up. So in that sense, a person's VO2max can be increased, assuming they are below their absolute max.

however there are many factors affecting the efficiency of the body's O2 uptake.

And there are also non-VO2max factors involved. Take two runners with the same VO2max and the runner with the more efficient running technique wins. I believe I read that the reason the Kenyans began to dominate marathon races wasn't because of a phenomenal VO2max. It was because they had learned an efficient running technique.

 

[banzaiengr]

Y

I don't believe though, that VWC is the best way to prepare for the snatch test at all and has more than a few drawbacks, the main being people learning incorrect pace for the test and not pausing with the bell overhead. It can cause many bad habits that are hard to break
Hope this helps

Thanks for your input. Very good point regarding the snatch test.

 

[Bret S.]

Sounds like from this and your other thread you're seeing a solid improvement in lactate clearance, which is something I'm always interested in. Mitochondrial density is one factor, but I've come across a number of studies showing qualitative improvements in mitochondrial metabolism/alactic glycolysis - and this effect is possible only by training at higher intensity/closer to and over the lactate threshold.

Not only does it supply more ATP over unit time than lipid oxidation, it helps clear metabolites from anaerobic glycolysis at a faster rate.

KJ talks about the triangle of conditioning, the three sides determine your level of conditioning,
they are:

- Oxygen uptake (VO2)
- Metabolite production ability
- Metabolite tolerance ability.

In no particular order and each influencing the other depending on how they're developed through the structure of training.

M tolerance = Work capacity
M production = Fatigue/management

 

[Bret S.]

At the risk of being overly pedantic and technical (gee, I've never said that before )

As Sgt. Schultz says, "I know nossink, nooosink!"

I understand that each person has a genetically determined "absolute max" VO2max. However, other than truly elite athletes, I doubt many of us are cracking that ceiling. Give me an overweight sedentary person and I can increase their VO2max without any training - provided the person is willing to lose weight. The VO2max formula factors bodyweight into the equation, so everything else being constant, as weight goes down, VO2max goes up. So in that sense, a person's VO2max can be increased, assuming they are below their absolute max.

I found the connection fascinating but don't really know the mechanism involved, maybe less 'body mass' to feed O2?

And there are also non-VO2max factors involved. Take two runners with the same VO2max and the runner with the more efficient running technique wins. I believe I read that the reason the Kenyans began to dominate marathon races wasn't because of a phenomenal VO2max. It was because they had learned an efficient running technique.

I can see that being a huge factor as 'efficiency' or 'fuel economy'. Less resistance (in this case it could be self generated resistance) should yield better miles per O2 liter per hour? Or something like that..

 

[Bret S.]

Yes I only did it once per week as I saw it as a way to do some cardiovascular training during a time when my knee would not allow any conventional cardio.

I did it consistently for three years before I made the 80 set goal then continued on for another three years using 20-30 min cycles as the mainstay workout.

When I switched my focus to swing training I still ( and still do continued 15:15 training with one arm swings as my second swing day

I don't believe though, that VWC is the best way to prepare for the snatch test at all and has more than a few drawbacks, the main being people learning incorrect pace for the test and not pausing with the bell overhead. It can cause many bad habits that are hard to break

The original idea of VWC was as a 6-8 week training phase just to bring up Max Vo2, not as a part of a regular training cycle. Once a week worked very well.

Hope this helps

KJ says you can stay with the 15:15 for a long time and work up to 9 reps x 80 sets, I'm going to stick with it for 2 reasons, #1 I'm stubborn and #2 I need the power and durability to advance my cause. If I didn't 'have' to do it I might have a different take.
I'm really enjoying the side effects of the program and as I said before MVO2 is not my top priority, having strong all terrain shoulders and a posterior chain that will not quit is what I need and the 15:15 is helping greatly. I'm very happy doing this program as I think it's literally the best one I've ever done pound for pound in terms of 'investment return and dividends gained'

 

[Anna C]

M tolerance = Work capacity
M production = Fatigue/management

That seems backwards to me. When I think about a bike ride, or a run, or a snatch test, I'm thinking that my work capacity, or how much I can get done in a finite amount of time, is determined (among other things, such as strength) by how much energy I can produce for the working muscles. My metabolite tolerance, specifically lactate tolerance, figures into fatigue management. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Anna C]

KJ says you can stay with the 15:15 for a long time and work up to 9 reps x 80 sets, I'm going to stick with it for 2 reasons, #1 I'm stubborn and #2 I need the power and durability to advance my cause. If I didn't 'have' to do it I might have a different take.
I'm really enjoying the side effects of the program and as I said before MVO2 is not my top priority, having strong all terrain shoulders and a posterior chain that will not quit is what I need and the 15:15 is helping greatly. I'm very happy doing this program as I think it's literally the best one I've ever done pound for pound in terms of 'investment return and dividends gained'

I'm finding your reports on the program interesting and I'm happy for your successes, however I'm half expecting you to self-combust from all the glycolytic training, in today's environment of encouraging AGT for so many reasons! (Not really, but it's just in such stark contrast to the Strong Endurance approach.) Curious, does it feel like you're on the same path as all the CrossFit metcon-ers? It seems like similar training, metabolically...

 

[North Coast Miller]

M tolerance = Work capacity
M production = Fatigue/management

That seems backwards to me. When I think about a bike ride, or a run, or a snatch test, I'm thinking that my work capacity, or how much I can get done in a finite amount of time, is determined (among other things, such as strength) by how much energy I can produce for the working muscles. My metabolite tolerance, specifically lactate tolerance, figures into fatigue management. Is there something I'm missing?

My equation looks more like this:
M production + M tolerance = Work Capacity + Fatigue Management

With recurring training at or close to ventilatory threshold the mitochondria become better at processing pyruvate qualitatively - nearly 2x the throughput of sedentary folk and higher than trained people who do not train at higher intensity. This is where alactic glycolysis kicks in - providing approx 2x the ATP of fat oxidation.

This higher rate also allows for faster lactate clearance and reduced buildup in the first place, the two are closely linked. At the same mitochondrial density, the person who includes high intensity training will have higher work capacity/higher ventilatory threshold. Lactate levels in an absolute sense don't really matter, the clearance rate does.

There oftentimes seem to be unrecognized factors of mitochondrial function in that many only consider the fat oxidation and PCr recovery aspects.

I'd agree with you about the overall levels and what sort of recovery might be needed on VWC, but a lot of factors go into this. Using a light enough load being a major part of it - enough to drive the HR to target with moderate rep count, not enough to overload your current recovery capacity.

Its an interesting program. While it should increase work capacity and lower resting HR (and it is) I have to wonder if more traditional locomotion type exercise selection might not be more useful - is tough to think of day to day physical activities where you need that sort of confined endurance - that don't involve walking, running, stairs, hills etc. While you'll still get a boost in endurance, you aren't getting the lower body conditioning.

When I've played out my current sandbag park bench fun, I might have to swap out the sand for rubber mulch and give this a try. I can see it doing good things but some of those sessions are an hour or longer - would be tough to find the time. And then you'd have to compare to faster training protocol like the typical HIIT.