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Other/Mixed Why Peter Attia Changed His Mind on Fasting

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Blue zone hot spots represent epidemiological associations of people who seem to life longer. In other words, the blue zone is not just diet it is an association. The whole human responds 24 hours a day to all the inputs, processes and outputs that occur. There can be some variation within limits but if variation falls outside those limits then health and lifespan are affected. So, the blue zone regions diet may vary a bit from the paleo diet idea and the paleo idea will still remain true.

For example, if you take the mediterranean diet and remove grains and dairy then you have a diet that approximates the paleo diet. Note that dairy and grain consumption varies wildly throughout the mediterranean area. Some places eat a lot of grain some eat little or none. Same with dairy. The mediterranean diet actually eaten by the older ones in different countries was in fact highly variable and I'm not even sure it should be called that. ie it might be better to talk about sardinian diet and so on. Buzz terms like "blue zone" sound great but can be a bit misleading. Even more so when layered upon things like the mediterranean diet.

The Victorians in industrial England a couple of hunder years ago were thought to life short and brutal lives as the average life span was reduced compared to modern people. Then someone did some in depth work, published (from memory) in the proceedings of the royal society and discovered that the average life span was reduced by a large number of infant deaths. In modern times, medicine has stopped many of those deaths and so the average lifespan is lengthened. The Victorians lived about as long as modern people in England if you take out infant mortality.

On the Okinawans, the studies showing longevity are due to a diet that is rather similar to a hunter gatherer diet when these dietary analyses were done using data going back over the life span of the old Okinawans ie back to around 1900. From memory they ate a lot of pig meat and vegetables.

Vegetarianism is an idealogical choice. Simple macro and micronutrient analysis of a vegetarian diet makes clear that they always end up with nutritional deficiencies. Zinc, Iron, glycine, methionine are some examples of nutrients they don't get enough of. So, they are a poor model.

The Kung currently in Africa are living a second class life and on a second class diet as they have been displaced and put into limited areas as happened to the American Indians and the Australian Aborigines and other similar groups. So, whilst we can learn some things from them about how things used to be done within living memory most of the reliable data comes from work done back in the 1940s-1960s on the Kung when they were relatively uncontaminated by modern civilisation. At that point anthropologists were visiting and spending time living with small groups who were hunting and gathering. From memory we don't have a large bank of mortality statistics for the Kung during that time.

Again:

What empirical longitudinal data do you have that eating like a hunter gather has been observed to increase longevity in populations?

Otherwise, it's just hypothesis and conjecture, as opposed to evidence-based.

Note:

This is assuming you actually *could* eat like one, which is not a sure thing given lack of game meats in modern grocery stores, fruits and vegetables that are domesticated and not the same as wild plants, etc.
 
No one has mentioned the Warrior Diet approach, which is under-eat then over-eat as opposed to fasting then eating. It's what I've been doing for years. Typically I have a small protein bar (10-12 gr of protein, 200-ish calories) with vitamins and coffee in the morning, and usually something else small before my big teaching block which is about 3:30 to 8 PM. I'm happy with my body composition, have been in the same weight class for 20 years, and my deadlift numbers keep going up.

-S-
Geoff Neupert argues that the body is built for feast/famine cycles so waving nutrition as well as workouts is best. He argues for fasting and feasting in the same week in one of his newsletter emails. In short, excessive calorie reduction starts to impact metabolism, so it needs a reset. The latter is not a new idea but I think waving calories in the same week might be. Not to mention the need for protein to repair and build muscle mass.

Tim Ferris said something similar a while ago in the four hour body book. Not that he is the expert but he is pretty good at identifying trends and synthesizing info from experts. I learned about kettlebells for the first time from his book.
All the above is what works for me. Not to change the subject completely, but I used to feel very dependent on regular feedings, you know, I'd get hungry and then I'd get cranky and my wife would tell me I needed to eat something - or just shut up. :)

I have since learned to embrace the "feast/famine cycles." I'm quite the social eater at times, e.g., my wife and I give three consecutive music lessons to a Mom, a colleague of my wife's and her two kids. Sometimes, they'll bring a couple of pizzas, and sometimes I'll put away half a pizza all by myself, and when it was my birthday a few months back, I did that plus I put away a pile of sweets, all on a Thursday evening because, well, because. If nothing else happens in the schedule, I tend to eat more on the weekends than I do during the week which, not for nothing, works nicely if you sometimes go to powerlifting competitions on the weekends. I often teach through what is most people's normal dinner hour, so the whole pile of things conspires to keep my weight good, my mood good, my lifting good - what's not to like? You just have to learn to "go with the flow" when it comes to eating, and then you try to manage the flow a bit without trying to over-regulate everything.

All this from, IMO, the Warrior Diet book some 20 years (maybe more) ago. Ori talks about how, sometimes when you're doing this kind of under- and over-eating, you'll all of a sudden have a big eating day, and you'll wake up weighing less, not more, the next day - this has happened to me many times.

-S-
 
Note:

This is assuming you actually *could* eat like one, which is not a sure thing given lack of game meats in modern grocery stores, fruits and vegetables that are domesticated and not the same as wild plants, etc.
Yeah, I’m not liking my chances of chasing and killing a kangaroo with my bare hands anytime soon. And it’s tough enough even when cooked by a chef. And also timing it so it’s in the afternoon to ensure I’ve fasted long enough would make it much more unlikely.
 
The human doesn't need to eat three meals daily or two or even one meal. Nutritional needs can be met on much longer timescales and bodyfat and ketones provide adequate fuel for days and weeks with adaptability more the issue when it comes to physical performance.

So what are we left with? Some arguments around optimal feeding patterns IF musculature is a concern. That's about it.

On a related note, Art Devany's support for intermittent fasting wasn't based on weight loss but around patterns of feast/famine experienced in traditional societies since time immemorial and removed from modern society by logistics.

Art argued humans were by design overeaters, programmed to eat beyond requirement (and fatten) when food was readily available in the expectation of periods of significant calorific restriction (or famine) when we would lean out. In other words our weight would vary based on food availability which was in itself variable. Forget set point theory hahaha. This natural order of things was what protected us from the illnesses of chronic obesity, not satiety, exercise, low carbs etc. The simple fact we couldn't overeat all the time.

I have photos of my grandfather where he is noticeably thinner in winter and fatter in summer. Who gets thin in winter any more?

Intermittent fasting was a way of replicating this variability (as well as providing some benefits in terms of blood sugar control and autophagy).
 
Well, I think those wanting human trials are overlooking the local history of Olalla, WA, where I just bought a new waterfront house.

Actually I bet her pitch that "disease lay in food - specifically too much of it" would work just fine today. The fasting sounds pretty contemporary:






Oh, but then she was tried for manslaughter because people died after fasting too long....(although modern SAD diet overweight people probably would last longer)....
She was probably a super good doctor and was actually framed by big grain, big pharma, big ag, and possibly big bill.
 
The human doesn't need to eat three meals daily or two or even one meal. Nutritional needs can be met on much longer timescales and bodyfat and ketones provide adequate fuel for days and weeks with adaptability more the issue when it comes to physical performance.

So what are we left with? Some arguments around optimal feeding patterns IF musculature is a concern. That's about it.

On a related note, Art Devany's support for intermittent fasting wasn't based on weight loss but around patterns of feast/famine experienced in traditional societies since time immemorial and removed from modern society by logistics.

Art argued humans were by design overeaters, programmed to eat beyond requirement (and fatten) when food was readily available in the expectation of periods of significant calorific restriction (or famine) when we would lean out. In other words our weight would vary based on food availability which was in itself variable. Forget set point theory hahaha. This natural order of things was what protected us from the illnesses of chronic obesity, not satiety, exercise, low carbs etc. The simple fact we couldn't overeat all the time.

I have photos of my grandfather where he is noticeably thinner in winter and fatter in summer. Who gets thin in winter any more?

Intermittent fasting was a way of replicating this variability (as well as providing some benefits in terms of blood sugar control and autophagy).
Yes, the ketones can provide the energy needs for many days if there is no glycogen available and there is absolutely no problem.
But what about amino acids? The body needs constantly amino acids and it can't store them.
 
No one has mentioned the Warrior Diet approach, which is under-eat then over-eat as opposed to fasting then eating. It's what I've been doing for years. Typically I have a small protein bar (10-12 gr of protein, 200-ish calories) with vitamins and coffee in the morning, and usually something else small before my big teaching block which is about 3:30 to 8 PM. I'm happy with my body composition, have been in the same weight class for 20 years, and my deadlift numbers keep going up.

-S-
Ori was ahead of his time. Everyone talks about muscles and longevity))) because everyone wants to be pumped up and live forever) But why does no one talk about the influence of nutrition on the nervous system, circadian rhythms, brain function in order to maximally develop their human abilities and do something useful for the world and immortalize himself with this!
 
circadian rhythms, brain function
I am exquisitely sensitive to arguments around the circadian rhythm. when I was a young one I learned AutoCAD and entered the Architectural Lighting industry. Little did I know that at that time Lawsuits against prisons were being won in courts across the nation, to do with 24/7 Lighting installations their effects on sleep/wake patterns, and the Cruel and Unusual nature of such things.

I was a part of many relamping projects that were incurred by the victories that these lawsuits found, and it eventually bled itself into every conceivable standards document in every locality and state that Night Lighting schemes had to conform to these standards in order to mitigate the damage done to those who were not asleep in bed at night.

furthermore, when I was too young, and maybe shouldn't have known this story. the nice lady who worked at the counter at the gas station across the street from the high school was found wandering the streets naked. She had suffered a psychotic break. it was diagnosed to have been the case that she was physiologically, and bio-chemically incompatible with working night shifts.

Furthermore, all the same science, which was marshaled to diagnose this poor woman and was brought to bear in these lawsuits (much of which is decades old, and if you look into the founding documents of the Architectural Lighting Industry, initial organization; IES the illumination engineering society, which contains much of this information; and implies that it has been known since time immemorial); all of this information, magically reappeared in the most recent rewrite of the army's brand new Holistic Health standards, which contains a chapter on sleep. Sleep was previously given short shrift as to soldier's performance, in one phrase in the previous standards. Soldiers require 4-6 hours of sleep per night to perform. now, there is a whole chapter, with sections and subsections discussing, timing, duration, and quality, and warns commanders that if ANY of these parameters are compromised you MUST account for this in your planning of missions and writing of orders in order to yield mission success.

and every time I was away from home at training, maybe put up in barracks or in a hotel, I made sure to sleep as early and often as i could. I was turning off lights and closing blinds, and trying to sleep around 8 pm, waking as early as 5 am on my own. and my physique responded accordingly. Sleep is an anabolic factor and so much more. verily the Spring forward daylight savings time change of the clock which correlates to one hour of sleep lost also correlates with a seasonally observable rise in heart attacks.

as a sleep expert once pointed out; it is a mere fact: if you use an alarm clock or any means of waking yourself up, then you are not getting enough sleep. I am exquisitely sensitive to this argument, and much to the chagrin of my wife I make certain to allow the kids to wake when they will as often as possible.
 
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With all the talk of IF, fasting, warrior diet and feast/famine, I'm surprised no one has mentioned metabolic flexibility. This to my mind is the biggest advatange of these methods - being able to effortlessly switch between fat burning and glucose burning as and when needed. This allows for far more consistent energy levels, the ability to perform well in a fasted state and a different relationship with food.

After a period of IF I found I could get up at 6am go for a 30 mile bike ride completely fasted with no issues with energy, 'hitting the wall' or feeling hungry. This would not have been the case in the past.
I lost a bit of muscle mass while I was transitioning, but it all came back and I have no problem maintaining it with a fasting window of 18-20 hours 5 days a week. I do the majority of my kettlebell training fasted.

I did lose some body fat, which was a bonus, and there may well be some autophaphy benefits who knows, but metabolic flexibility is the biggest gain for me in eating/not eating in this kind of fashion.
 
Not to go too off topic here.... I realize the video in the OP was about longer term fasting (multiple day fasting) as opposed to intermittent fasting (IF). Maybe some of this discussion should be moved to a thread on intermittent fasting instead....

However, I have always found it interesting that a fair number of IF proponents often skip breakfast and eat the majority of calories during lunch and in the evening. There is evidence that insulin sensitivity decreases as the day goes on with the lowest sensitivity in the evening. Therefore, calories consumed later in the evening will spike one's blood sugar more possibly leading to higher free fatty acid concentration in the body. Based on this, I usually try to eat a huge breakfast (sometimes after fasted cardio) and try not to eat anything after 7 PM. It seems this might be the origin of the saying that you should eat breakfast like king, lunch like a queen, and dinner like a pauper.

Paper on Diurnal Variation in Insulin Sensitivity - J. Yoshino et. al.​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154096/?report=classic
 
Not to go too off topic here.... I realize the video in the OP was about longer term fasting (multiple day fasting) as opposed to intermittent fasting (IF). Maybe some of this discussion should be moved to a thread on intermittent fasting instead....

However, I have always found it interesting that a fair number of IF proponents often skip breakfast and eat the majority of calories during lunch and in the evening. There is evidence that insulin sensitivity decreases as the day goes on with the lowest sensitivity in the evening. Therefore, calories consumed later in the evening will spike one's blood sugar more possibly leading to higher free fatty acid concentration in the body. Based on this, I usually try to eat a huge breakfast (sometimes after fasted cardio) and try not to eat anything after 7 PM. It seems this might be the origin of the saying that you should eat breakfast like king, lunch like a queen, and dinner like a pauper.

Paper on Diurnal Variation in Insulin Sensitivity - J. Yoshino et. al.​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154096/?report=classic

Correct.

It has nothing to do with IF.

His remarks are about long fasts.
 
Because it’s
Why would you think eating like a hunter-gatherer would be optimal for health in the first place?
Because it’s likely how we evolved and survived for millennia. At this point in time humans are the only animals on the planet who aren’t 100% sure what and how they should be eating lol. Kind of like how it’s been proven that the stress of heat and cold is great for our health, also the cycle of being able to survive times without food for certain periods of time is probably what we’re built for. The constant snacking and sugar (carb loading) is clearly not how we should be eating.
 
Because it’s

Because it’s likely how we evolved and survived for millennia. At this point in time humans are the only animals on the planet who aren’t 100% sure what and how they should be eating lol. Kind of like how it’s been proven that the stress of heat and cold is great for our health, also the cycle of being able to survive times without food for certain periods of time is probably what we’re built for. The constant snacking and sugar (carb loading) is clearly not how we should be eating.

There are a lot of challenges with that line of thinking:

a) There is no singular 'hunter gatherer diet'. Different humans ate really different stuff depending on where they lived. What they got may not have been optimal, but rather simply what was available.

b) A lot of what they ate isn't scalable or even available in modern societies. Squirrel meat, whale blubber, acorn mash, etc.

c) Many many groups of humans have been agricultural for millennia, which is long enough to exert evolutionary survival pressure. Domestication of animals leading to milk tolerance being an obvious one.

d) Evolution doesn't need to select for maximum longevity. Long enough to breed and raise your kids to maturity is 'good enough' to get your genes passed along.

e) Paleo humans had lots of health issues and often signs of malnutrition that we can see in their bones.

Paleo anthropologists, archaeological scientists and nutritionists have debunked the paleo diet as evolutionarily superior or simply vague and impractical several times:

 
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I am exquisitely sensitive to arguments around the circadian rhythm. when I was a young one I learned AutoCAD and entered the Architectural Lighting industry. Little did I know that at that time Lawsuits against prisons were being won in courts across the nation, to do with 24/7 Lighting installations their effects on sleep/wake patterns, and the Cruel and Unusual nature of such things.

I was a part of many relamping projects that were incurred by the victories that these lawsuits found, and it eventually bled itself into every conceivable standards document in every locality and state that Night Lighting schemes had to conform to these standards in order to mitigate the damage done to those who were not asleep in bed at night.

furthermore, when I was too young, and maybe shouldn't have known this story. the nice lady who worked at the counter at the gas station across the street from the high school was found wandering the streets naked. She had suffered a psychotic break. it was diagnosed to have been the case that she was physiologically, and bio-chemically incompatible with working night shifts.

Furthermore, all the same science, which was marshaled to diagnose this poor woman and was brought to bear in these lawsuits (much of which is decades old, and if you look into the founding documents of the Architectural Lighting Industry, initial organization; IES the illumination engineering society, which contains much of this information; and implies that it has been known since time immemorial); all of this information, magically reappeared in the most recent rewrite of the army's brand new Holistic Health standards, which contains a chapter on sleep. Sleep was previously given short shrift as to soldier's performance, in one phrase in the previous standards. Soldiers require 4-6 hours of sleep per night to perform. now, there is a whole chapter, with sections and subsections discussing, timing, duration, and quality, and warns commanders that if ANY of these parameters are compromised you MUST account for this in your planning of missions and writing of orders in order to yield mission success.

and every time I was away from home at training, maybe put up in barracks or in a hotel, I made sure to sleep as early and often as i could. I was turning off lights and closing blinds, and trying to sleep around 8 pm, waking as early as 5 am on my own. and my physique responded accordingly. Sleep is an anabolic factor and so much more. verily the Spring forward daylight savings time change of the clock which correlates to one hour of sleep lost also correlates with a seasonally observable rise in heart attacks.

as a sleep expert once pointed out; it is a mere fact: if you use an alarm clock or any means of waking yourself up, then you are not getting enough sleep. I am exquisitely sensitive to this argument, and much to the chagrin of my wife I make certain to allow the kids to wake when they will as often as possible.

Interesting... I can't really argue with that, and I agree that, for example, shift work can be terribad for some people, better for others.

It's just, living next to the arctic circle, we get awful amounts of light for months to end in the summer. Not a blip of darkness to be found.

In the winter, I fall asleep better, but it's harder to wake up with the darkness.

I often wonder what it would be like to live some Mm south where the weather and the daily cycle was more constant.
 
Not me.

Big glass of milk + whey protein powder in bed leaves a big bollus of protein in my belly during my peak anabolic window.

Depriving my body of food during prime anabolic zone always seemed sub optimal if I want to stay jacked and tan.

I mostly fast when I wake. Breakfast is a latte, and I don't eat anything else until lunch, and that's usually a salad.
What type of milk ?
 
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