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Other/Mixed Zone 2 cardio question

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

John K

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
This was another interesting video by the same guy talking about fat vs sugar in exercise, and I've time stamped it to where he starts talking about mitochondria changes and its effect:


(And, @North Coast Miller , he mentions around 16:30 that mitochondrial capacity and function are BOTH improved in the "zone 5" area, the draw back is just the total amount that someone can do. Sounds like what you've been saying.)
 
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watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
Although I've understood that, I didn't really have a good explanation, but started to make more sense to me when he broke it down into cellular steady state and systemic steady state as to why that would be the case.

It's also mechanical advantage of machines, in some cases (rowing, cycling).

Rowing has higher top end VO2 Max than running, but lower HR.

Because really good rowers can produce bodacious amounts of power at lower stroke rates than novices by utilizing good technique to leverage all the mechanical advantages (sliding seat, big a#@ lever arms in the form of oars, slick hulls) that you don't get when running.
 
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jrtmolar

Level 1 Valued Member
Few things I have learned as I’ve gone down a zone 2 rabbit hole over the last year......

According to Attia, 3-4 hours per week is optimal. I break this up into 4 rowing sessions.

180-age is a good place to start but the only real way to make sure your in zone 2 is through lactate testing. I immediately test after a session and confirm he lactate in below 2.0 mmols/liter

The wattage is the best metic to determine if your metabolic health is improving zone 2 training. More specifically watts/kilogram. The rough wats/kilo are as follows

1=poor health.
2=average health
3=10th percentile health
4=elite health.

This value can be different for the same person depending on the zone 2 apparatus they are using. For example I’m currently around 2.5 on the tower but below 2 on a treadmill.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Few things I have learned as I’ve gone down a zone 2 rabbit hole over the last year......

According to Attia, 3-4 hours per week is optimal. I break this up into 4 rowing sessions.

180-age is a good place to start but the only real way to make sure your in zone 2 is through lactate testing. I immediately test after a session and confirm he lactate in below 2.0 mmols/liter

The wattage is the best metic to determine if your metabolic health is improving zone 2 training. More specifically watts/kilogram. The rough wats/kilo are as follows

1=poor health.
2=average health
3=10th percentile health
4=elite health.

This value can be different for the same person depending on the zone 2 apparatus they are using. For example I’m currently around 2.5 on the tower but below 2 on a treadmill.

Do you feel different as far as energy, overall health, recovery from other training... or anything else?
 

jrtmolar

Level 1 Valued Member
Do you feel different as far as energy, overall health, recovery from other training... or anything else?
Tough to say specially. It’s helped me lose weight. I get about 700 calories burned with a 60 minute zone 2 row.

I feel in better aerobic shape for other activities I engage in like rucking.

I also feel less winded when I’m doing high intensity stuff like S&S.

But I’m playing the long game, the longevity game, the centenarian olympics as Attia likes to say and zone 2 and zone 5 training are a huge part of that’s.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Tough to say specially. It’s helped me lose weight. I get about 700 calories burned with a 60 minute zone 2 row.

I feel in better aerobic shape for other activities I engage in like rucking.

I also feel less winded when I’m doing high intensity stuff like S&S.

But I’m playing the long game, the longevity game, the centenarian olympics as Attia likes to say and zone 2 and zone 5 training are a huge part of that’s.

Great to hear! That's about what I would expect. Thanks.
 

paules

Level 5 Valued Member
Few things I have learned as I’ve gone down a zone 2 rabbit hole over the last year......

According to Attia, 3-4 hours per week is optimal. I break this up into 4 rowing sessions.

180-age is a good place to start but the only real way to make sure your in zone 2 is through lactate testing. I immediately test after a session and confirm he lactate in below 2.0 mmols/liter

The wattage is the best metic to determine if your metabolic health is improving zone 2 training. More specifically watts/kilogram. The rough wats/kilo are as follows

1=poor health.
2=average health
3=10th percentile health
4=elite health.

This value can be different for the same person depending on the zone 2 apparatus they are using. For example I’m currently around 2.5 on the tower but below 2 on a treadmill.
Thanks for sharing. As someone who is also training for longevity I am really interested in this. How does your lactate testing HR compare to your 180 minus your age? I use the 180 formula for my zone 2 training and haven't done a lactate test. Thanks!
 

jrtmolar

Level 1 Valued Member
Thanks for sharing. As someone who is also training for longevity I am really interested in this. How does your lactate testing HR compare to your 180 minus your age? I use the 180 formula for my zone 2 training and haven't done a lactate test. Thanks!
My current zone 2 HR ceiling is 135. I try to keep all my zone 2 work in the 125-135 range. THAT BEING SAID I have found that the HR can change based on certain conditions like sleep quality, hydration and how recently I have eaten. We have all done cardio that simply feels harder for some reason on any given day . . . .Ive stayed in that zone on those "harder" days and then tested my lactate and had it be 3 mmol/liter.


I have a team of about 100 people in my business and once a month or so I share something with them that I feel will help their lives outside of work. Here is a summary I shared on the "centenarian olympics" and how to think about training for what you want to accomplish in the marginal decade of your life.
 

TedDK

Level 5 Valued Member
THAT BEING SAID I have found that the HR can change based on certain conditions like sleep quality, hydration and how recently I have eaten. We have all done cardio that simply feels harder for some reason on any given day . . . .
And because of the reason you mention here, HR isnt the best to follow IMO.
Conversation pace/talk test and so on is alot better.
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
Tough to say specially. It’s helped me lose weight. I get about 700 calories burned with a 60 minute zone 2 row.

Do you row on the water, as well?

I rarely do marathon rows on the erg in the off-water season -- I'll do 2x 5k, for example, instead, for pace training reasons.
 

jrtmolar

Level 1 Valued Member
Do you row on the water, as well?

I rarely do marathon rows on the erg in the off-water season -- I'll do 2x 5k, for example, instead, for pace training reasons.
Just row on my indoor concept 2 rower usually at a zone 2 pace of 2:15/500 meters.

I also do my zone 5 training on the rower
 

TedDK

Level 5 Valued Member
Do you row on the water, as well?

I rarely do marathon rows on the erg in the off-water season -- I'll do 2x 5k, for example, instead, for pace training reasons.
Where do you Got the 700calories from?
I wouldnt believe you burn that much in the Rowling machine.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Below is a video about the different cardio zones and their own benefits :

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Here is a summary I shared on the "centenarian olympics" and how to think about training for what you want to accomplish in the marginal decade of your life.
This is excellent! Specific, but simple. And I definitely agree with the recommendations. Thanks for sharing.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Elite Certified Instructor
Peter Attia has a wealth of info on his podcast about Zone 2, esp the episodes with Inigo San Millan. He trains pro cyclists. They seem to feel you need a min of 45 mins at a time, 3-4 hours a week. But my sense that is for elite level performance.
Those sound like reasonable enough numbers to me. When I ran, 40 minutes seemed like enough for me to get better, 20-30 minutes not so much. Now that I walk, I'd say about twice that long is something I find challenging but I don't try to do it every day, more like once every few weeks. And, no doubt, I'm not in the kind of endurance shape I used to be but that's OK with me.

-S-
 

DrFierce

Level 5 Valued Member
100% agree. RPE is the best metric but for engineer/analytics like me, we all need a number to fall back on :)
I think the talk test just feels a bit squishier to me. I can get significantly above my MAF number (125-135 with nasal breathing and on the talk test.

That being said, Peter's version of Zone 2 looks pretty hard to me-- and would probably fall in a higher HR range:
edit wrong video inserted. Here is the correct one


Obviously the MAF number is probably lowballing things a bit.
 
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