watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I thought your goal was to gain muscle and lose fat.
Fat loss and Muscle gain (not versus)
- Thread starter Xcal
- Start date
I thought your goal was to gain muscle and lose fat.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
The vibe I get is that he intends to be strong , first. Any hypertrophy might be viewed as incidental
To be fair, larger muscles correlate very regularly with increased strength.
I noticed we're going in circles on this!
Based on what I'm reading and interpreting, his main goal is to lose fat.
His second goal is to gain muscle.
His third goal is to increase strength.
As Dan John would say (paraphrasing), "Look at your goals. Does your plan reflect your goals? If not, change your plan or your goals (or both)."
What I'm seeing is that he wants to do a good deal of running and S&S (while throwing in some C&J).
Will this help him accomplish his goals?
1.) For weight loss (with some fat loss), the running combined with proper nutrition should work. S&S won't really help with fat loss but may benefit his running.
2.) Muscle gain? None of what he's planning will help.
3.) Increase strength? Again, none of what he's doing will help.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
This is a short term goal. Losing 5to8kg of fat shouldn't take more than a few months. The 32kg has been a target since I read ETK last year.
Vision, mission, goals. Losing fat and gaining muscle is a step towards owning the 32kg, and so on and so forth.
I read in many places that muscle gain for beginners does improve at a faster pace. and I read everywhere that a starting point for a strong man is 24kg. so I think that I will gain muscle and strength for some time. I started the mission to own 24kg swings, which will take a few weeks, so want to finish it before starting the next program,
The worlds best all round whatwhat : I'll dig around, but do like the article.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I've found with myself and my coaching clients (since 2009) that the order of easiest to hardest looks like this:
1.) Increase strength
- Everyone can increase strength to an adequate level the quickest with proper training
- I've seen new clients make great strides in their first 3-4 weeks (mostly due to neuromuscular adaptations)
- Within 3-12 months, many will achieve fantastic strength gains for their size, age, etc.
2.) Lose fat
- This takes time, effort, commitment, and dedication especially with nutrition (always the hardest part)
- Many of my clients have lost 20lbs in 12 weeks and 40lbs in 6 months (on average)
3.) Gain Muscle
- This is the HARDEST thing for anyone to do, and it's an all-out fight to increase muscle mass especially as you age
- Even beginners have to work hard and put in the time, effort, training, and nutrition needed to put on 5-10lbs in 6 or more months
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
100% concur.
I also think #2 becomes a lot easier after you do #3.
The most rapid and successful fat losses I've had have been after hypertrophy blocks when I've ramped my metabolism up to 3000-3200 calories a day over a long period of time.
Then doing a cut afterwards the fat loss goes much more rapidly, and I can be in a decent deficit it while still eating a 'normal' amount of calories (2500-2700) and getting adequate nutrients.
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bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
A few simple options I like to think I would consider if I were in your shoes:
If you like kettlebells, find a kettlebell hypertrophy plan. If they don’t include swings, do a few sets after each session. Go for 2-3 easy to moderate runs each week. Eat more protein. Get your protein in FIRST with each meal, and then it will naturally be easier to eat less of other things.
Use RoP. There’s no universal law stating you can’t run it with a 16kg bell. Run a couple days a week, get some pulling and squatting in. Done.
Lastly, and this is something I have applied to myself: A lot of the programs we read with fancy rep schemes and waving and so on and so forth will make you stronger, BUT imo if you a training beginner (that is, you aren’t relatively very strong yet) there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing simple things like (10reps) x 3 sets for hypertrophy and strength. I can practically guarantee that if you can do a unbroken set of 20+ full range of motion push-ups where you couldn’t before , your kettlebell press will improve, your arms and chest will grow. I am a calisthenics guy, and a LOT of the big and strong calisthenics athletes out there recommend beginners aim for things like 5 sets of 8-12 reps for things like push-ups and rows.
So even a “bro split” plus some running will get you some more muscle and fat loss.
Not to give you even more options, but it’s something to consider. You might achieve your goals with a much simpler approach than you think.
-two cents, hope it helps
If you like kettlebells, find a kettlebell hypertrophy plan. If they don’t include swings, do a few sets after each session. Go for 2-3 easy to moderate runs each week. Eat more protein. Get your protein in FIRST with each meal, and then it will naturally be easier to eat less of other things.
Use RoP. There’s no universal law stating you can’t run it with a 16kg bell. Run a couple days a week, get some pulling and squatting in. Done.
Lastly, and this is something I have applied to myself: A lot of the programs we read with fancy rep schemes and waving and so on and so forth will make you stronger, BUT imo if you a training beginner (that is, you aren’t relatively very strong yet) there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing simple things like (10reps) x 3 sets for hypertrophy and strength. I can practically guarantee that if you can do a unbroken set of 20+ full range of motion push-ups where you couldn’t before , your kettlebell press will improve, your arms and chest will grow. I am a calisthenics guy, and a LOT of the big and strong calisthenics athletes out there recommend beginners aim for things like 5 sets of 8-12 reps for things like push-ups and rows.
So even a “bro split” plus some running will get you some more muscle and fat loss.
Not to give you even more options, but it’s something to consider. You might achieve your goals with a much simpler approach than you think.
-two cents, hope it helps
For me, #1 makes #2 easier!
Getting stronger helps me get leaner on a fat loss phase.
A hypertrophy phase makes it harder for me to lose fat afterwards for some reason. I'm better off going on a strength phase and then back to fat loss.
This is how I schedule my training phases with my clients throughout the year in 4-week phases:
Month 1: Strength and Structural Balance
Month 2: Fat Loss/Conditioning
Month 3: Bodybuilding Bootcamp
Repeat Months 4-12!
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
It's probably because my competition macro prep cycle is inverted from that.
Nov - Feb: Strength & hypertrophy focus
Mar - Apr: Weightlifting competition prep, power focus (i.e. less grinds, more competition ballistics)
May: Peak for meet, cut weight for weigh-in
Jun: Begin rowing season conditioning
Jul-Oct: On the water racing
Agreed!
If I wanted a minimalist plan to do this, I would perform Squats, Presses, Pull-ups (and/or Rows), and Swings.
I believe the All Bases Covered (ABC's) plan in the StrongFirst app covers that.
Also, BuiltStrong Minimalist is set up like this with the recommended option of doing Swings (and Get-ups) on the off days.
Yes! 100%
Yep!
Also true!
The simple approach is always the best.
There are some great posts and questions here about fat loss and muscle gain. This has gotten overly analytical in that in order to gain muscle mass a person needs to create muscle tension and time under tension while supporting that growth with adequate protein and some carbohydrate. Anything less ( or more) cals will disrupt the day loss or prevent muscle gain. The literature is clear on these principles.I'm firmly in the camp that people who need to lose fat must also gain muscle. There are outliers but I'm not one. I currently need to lose maybe 5kg of fat that built up around my abdomen (the high risk buildup!) instead of around my @$$. i'd LOVE 5kg of fat around my @$$, but a flat@$$ is not my body/genetic makeup.
anyway. I know from theory *and* personal experience that we should comfortably lose about half-kg (1pound) of fat per week until we reach our goal. the excercise focus (to my knowledge and previous practice) has been on cardio rather than muscle building. now that I'm working with KB's I want some idea of how to factor growing muscle into the picture. the pop-research always says "don't be concerned if you are not losing weight because you may be putting on muscle and muscle is denser....". but there is no guideline for muscle building as there is for fat loss.
in your experience: what is a comfortable idea of how much muscle weight one can put on by following a reasonable training program?
in my case, I started checking my weight about 6 weeks ago (88.3kg 1.84m), I fluctuated between 87.x and 89.xx and still 88.5 today
my last 9 months of fat/muscle has been chaotic. I was in great shape in October 22 (other than my medical issue which was well controlled then and is under controll now). I changed medication and became almost bedridden in November, switched back to my med schedule in December and recovered by Jan, then had an accident and was again totally inactive for 2 months. almost 4 months of inaction in this period, and now I have a very dangerous body composition and my medical condition. I am able to tackle the fat and live with the med-steroids.
I slowly built myslef up in March and started training hard again by April. I started S&S by the end of April to take ownership of the 24kg (doing 10x10 1h swings every other day now, not using the 16kg for swings). I feel the muscle come back all along my posterior chain (neck down to calves). but my weight is still the same. I'm not overly concerned by these numbers, I feel that I'm on the right track.
I'll repeat my question after this long story
how do you measure muscle growth?
what is a comfortable muscle growth per week or month?
this is so subjective that I don't even like to ask these questions! so lets frame it as 2 parts: What is your own experience? what would you recomend for a 'normal' person who trains hard 2or4 times per week. NOT and elite athlete, or an actor who is building to a role, or someone who has a personal trainer at their doorstep every morning, or....
Is there a benchmark that I can work towards, like: I really want to have the ideal nuclear family with 2.5 children
Get ups and swings likely will not lead to muscle gain unless you are in an atrophic or catabolic state. Build size - can’t beat the barbell……
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
5 kg. Hmmm. I went from 108 kg to 89 kg in about 2 months. I only ate one big meal a day. Basically, it sucked doing this. I plateaued at 89kg and could not lose more. I was looking gaunt though. I have since started eating more, basically 2 meals a day, and I have climbed back up to 93-94kg. The trick is to reduce calorie intake in a way that is not too burdensome, and in a way that does not compromise one's nutrition.
Muscles give the body its proper shape, and so without muscle gain a person is just getting weak and scrawny.
It is important to exercise, and the whole body, not just the legs and not just the arms.
Muscles give the body its proper shape, and so without muscle gain a person is just getting weak and scrawny.
It is important to exercise, and the whole body, not just the legs and not just the arms.
TomP30
Level 2 Valued Member
It’s certainly true that in my first 6 months of doing S&S I gained some muscle mass. I got to Timeless Simple after 7 months and now, whilst I do S&S a few times a week, I’ve switched to Pat flynn’s 10-5-3’programme, incorporating doubles and chin-ups etc.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
A thick muscular back, boulder shoulders, big traps, Popeye forearms, and tree trunk core is what makes you look genuinely strong and not like a wasp-waisted beauty contestant gym-mirror obsessed narcissist.
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TomP30
Level 2 Valued Member
I’m afraid not, my loaded squats are limited to double kettlebells for now!Do you have access to the barbell? If yes, join our 2023 squatting challenge while continue doing what you like. A year of consistent squatting can get you a bit of muscle mass. You won't gain a lot of muscle I promise
Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
yes, now I know this
thanks to the all the responses hereand the chicken legs! "Fighting men ride chickens, they don't eat them"
I checked the thread. this looks really interesting. but I don't have a barbell. I usually do the S&S prying goblet squats 1or2 times per week...currently transitioning from easy 16kg to a manageable 24kg. I saw today's messages in the thread about the Hindu Squats and Hindu Pushups. I want to GTG these.
I searched uncle Goo for 'hindu squats' it took me a while to find a Hindu demonstrating it
Cultral appropriation, or Bruce Lee's 'absorb what is useful.."? lol. I will try to absorb it.
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
make me think about Bulgarian split squat or Romanian Deadlift