Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion

[Christoph W.]

Nice. What do you think which kettlebell presses would be better for gpp , a+a style or lets say 5x5 and it's variations?

Honestly I would do neither.
A+A presses only with double KBs, because the "per-arm volume" is very low with single KB presses. Imagine doing 20-30min of 1-2 reps OTM. That's only 10-30 reps per arm with a bell that's below 70% of 1RM. Not a good recipe for strength or hyperthrophy, which both are a important factors for GPP IMO.

5×5 is very good for barbell work. With microloading you can always keep the weight in the perfect intensity zone. You can't do that with KBs. For example I can do 5×5 with the 24Kg, but 28Kg is my current 2RM. There's no way that I can make the jump to 5×5 with the 28Kg bell.

Personally I prefer ladders. Especially the 2, 3, 5 ladder.
I would do 3 sets of 2, 3, 5 two days per week.
Then over time work in the heavier KB one rung at a time.
I take myself as an example again. I'd do 2, 3, 5 with the 24Kg for 4-6 weeks. Then do the 2-rung with the 28Kg, while still doing the 3- and 5-rung with the 24Kg. Do that for another 4-6 weeks and then replace the 3-rung with the 28Kg and so on...

 

[TNT]

Honestly I would do neither.
A+A presses only with double KBs, because the "per-arm volume" is very low with single KB presses. Imagine doing 20-30min of 1-2 reps OTM. That's only 10-30 reps per arm with a bell that's below 70% of 1RM. Not a good recipe for strength or hyperthrophy, which both are a important factors for GPP IMO.

5×5 is very good for barbell work. With microloading you can always keep the weight in the perfect intensity zone. You can't do that with KBs. For example I can do 5×5 with the 24Kg, but 28Kg is my current 2RM. There's no way that I can make the jump to 5×5 with the 28Kg bell.

Personally I prefer ladders. Especially the 2, 3, 5 ladder.
I would do 3 sets of 2, 3, 5 two days per week.
Then over time work in the heavier KB one rung at a time.
I take myself as an example again. I'd do 2, 3, 5 with the 24Kg for 4-6 weeks. Then do the 2-rung with the 28Kg, while still doing the 3- and 5-rung with the 24Kg. Do that for another 4-6 weeks and then replace the 3-rung with the 28Kg and so on...

3x 2-3-5 with 32 kg is what i do.

 

[Matt_lux]

Personally I prefer ladders. Especially the 2, 3, 5 ladder.
I would do 3 sets of 2, 3, 5 two days per week.
Then over time work in the heavier KB one rung at a time.
I take myself as an example again. I'd do 2, 3, 5 with the 24Kg for 4-6 weeks. Then do the 2-rung with the 28Kg, while still doing the 3- and 5-rung with the 24Kg. Do that for another 4-6 weeks and then replace the 3-rung with the 28Kg and so on...

That's exactly what I'm currently doing, but regarding progression, I never thought about adding weight to ladders, one by one. Thanks !

 

[Christoph W.]

That's exactly what I'm currently doing, but regarding progression, I never thought about adding weight to ladders, one by one. Thanks !

IMO it's a great way of adding strength without upping the volume too much.
RoP is great, but towards the end you're doing 5×(1, 2, 3, 4, 5). That's a lot of volume which takes a long time ti complete and some folks simply can't tolerate that much volume.

You can add weight to the ladders in those two ways (sure you can find other variants, but those two are the obvious ones):

- Regular fond = current working weight
- Bold fond = next bigger KB/KBs

2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
-> conservative variant

2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
-> aggressive variant

For both variants stay with a certain step for 2-8 weeks, depending on your recovery/lifestyle/stressors etc.

If you went through the whole progression and still cannot use the even next bigger KB for the 2-rung, simply increase the number of sets from 3 to 4 or stay with 3 and add another day.

(2, 3, 5) is my favorite ladder, but I also like (3, 5, 8) and (1, 2, 3).

 

[George Vrotsos]

IMO it's a great way of adding strength without upping the volume too much.
RoP is great, but towards the end you're doing 5×(1, 2, 3, 4, 5). That's a lot of volume which takes a long time ti complete and some folks simply can't tolerate that much volume.

You can add weight to the ladders in those two ways (sure you can find other variants, but those two are the obvious ones):

- Regular fond = current working weight
- Bold fond = next bigger KB/KBs

2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
-> conservative variant

2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
2 3 5
-> aggressive variant

For both variants stay with a certain step for 2-8 weeks, depending on your recovery/lifestyle/stressors etc.

If you went through the whole progression and still cannot use the even next bigger KB for the 2-rung, simply increase the number of sets from 3 to 4 or stay with 3 and add another day.

(2, 3, 5) is my favorite ladder, but I also like (3, 5, 8) and (1, 2, 3).

Fantastic post worthy of its own discussion thread. Thank you.

@Steve Freides I can't see bold fonts on laptop. They show up bold and clear when I'm on mobile but not when I'm on my laptop.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Steve Freides I can't see bold fonts on laptop. They show up bold and clear when I'm on mobile but not when I'm on my laptop.

Suggestion: take screenshots on your laptop, send an email with all the hardware, operating system, screen resolution you're using, etc., plus those screenshots, to webmaster@ here. The more detail you give, the better.

-S-

 

[Greg H]

Personally I prefer ladders. Especially the 2, 3, 5 ladder.
I would do 3 sets of 2, 3, 5 two days per week.
Then over time work in the heavier KB one rung at a time.
I take myself as an example again. I'd do 2, 3, 5 with the 24Kg for 4-6 weeks. Then do the 2-rung with the 28Kg, while still doing the 3- and 5-rung with the 24Kg. Do that for another 4-6 weeks and then replace the 3-rung with the 28Kg and so on...

Are these press ladders single or double KB?

 

[renegadenate]

Now that I've read the book, I've realized that I've been performing AXE-like sessions with myself and my coaching clients since 2010!!

I would routinely program sessions with a variety of power exercises for 10 seconds of work and 50 seconds of rest for 20-minute sessions.

Even when I used 15-45 and 20-40 (and even 30-30) Intervals, they were within the whole A+A/Strong Endurance parameters.

I'm really looking forward to the "Metal Heart" book (AKA All-Terrain Conditioning) as that is also how I trained for a good decade and while I competed in obstacle course races (and the All-Terrain Conditioning seminar is still one of my most favorite StrongFirst events).

 

[Christoph W.]

Are these press ladders single or double KB?

Doesn't matter.

 

[SantaClause]

Great post Niko and I look forward to hearing Pavels response on his. Something I have started doing since I attended Strong Endurance in July is build up my bag work time. I started at one 20 minute round and built up to an hour of bag work twice a week. I didn’t follow any time structure only that most of my shots were full power and I kept the pace and frequency of punches slower ie much more single shots, two shots and occasionally 3 shot combos and never more but always making sure that I can pass the talk test throughout. Doing it in an unstructured free flow manner allows me to drill the technique and fight combos and game plan as well as my conditioning all at the same time. Training like this has been a game changer for me and I have developed a huge work capacity. I believe Leon Spinks trained like this for Ali but he worked up to 2 hours on the bag and was able to effortlessly fight for 15 x 3 minute rounds. On top of this I have been doing long cycle clean jerk KBSF programme for 9 months to build my work capacity for grappling. The two axe sessions of KBSF and two long bagwork sessions a week along with EES seemed to very very well for me.

Thank you for the information Summerhouse, this is very interesting. I read this when you wrote this and have had to reply to you for a while. This method seems super simple and effective so I'm wondering about the details of the workout. Do you only punch 1-3 max power punches or do you do light punches in between? And what is the average (I know it isn't constant) frequency of your power punches, meaning do you wait for 5-10 seconds or for much longer (>30 seconds) . And when you start getting heavy breathing do you stop the session or do you just rest longer between punches/combos and do predetermined amount of time (20-60 minutes as you told)? Do you use loss of power as a guide to stop the workout?

-Niko

 

[Summerhouse]

Thank you for the information Summerhouse, this is very interesting. I read this when you wrote this and have had to reply to you for a while. This method seems super simple and effective so I'm wondering about the details of the workout. Do you only punch 1-3 max power punches or do you do light punches in between? And what is the average (I know it isn't constant) frequency of your power punches, meaning do you wait for 5-10 seconds or for much longer (>30 seconds) . And when you start getting heavy breathing do you stop the session or do you just rest longer between punches/combos and do predetermined amount of time (20-60 minutes as you told)? Do you use loss of power as a guide to stop the workout?

-Niko

Hi Niko. Personally, I don’t count the punches or count the rest period. I hit the bag free flow and freestyle ie the same way I would if I was fighting ie with fakes and feints and light shots to set up the heavier shots etc. The only thing I make sure of is that I can pass the talk test and I am not getting out of breath. It’s not an exact science. If I ‘feel’ like I am starting to get a bit too close to a glycolytic process I ease off the gas pedal a bit. It’s similar to what I would do if I was in a real fight or match and I threw a flurry off shots and felt tired I would move out of range and move around until I get my breath back. Stay on my toes and move around with my guard up similar to the way someone might do fast and loose between sets of swings or snatches. It’s definitely not a scientific or structured practice and I prefer to keep this type of session free like that. When doing my A+A sessions with kettlebells I follow the plan as outlined with rest periods and stop signs more strictly.
In this session I just have fun, enjoy my craft and art and hit the bag for an hour non stop, making sure that I can maintain a pace which allows me to employ full power strikes but still be able to speak in complete sentences throughout. I think it’s hard to quantify and give exact guidelines for this type of training, it’s something you have to experiment with and play with. Perhaps starting with something like a 5 or 10 minute round and slowly building up to 40-60mins .

 

[Summerhouse]

I also set the timer to go off an 2 minute intervals or three minute intervals at which point I switch to a different bag ie the uppercut bag or maize bag. And sometimes I might change the theme of what I am doing in that round ie make it an inside fighting round or a long range punching round or a body punching focussed round etc

 

[Hung]

@Antti Have you done kettlebell swing AXE style a last few weeks? How do you feel overall ? I tried to incoporate swing into my current training week and keep feels like my IT band is overload. I think I get about 7-8 sets before my left IT band gets tight. Probably because I pull sumo and my swing stance is wider than normal people (I have a very wide handle kettlebell).

 

[DocMike]

What's the consensus for off days between weight training...Q&D, S&S, or AXE?

 

[renegadenate]

What's the consensus for off days between weight training...Q&D, S&S, or AXE?

You can pretty much do whatever you want! All three are good options. It just depends on your goals. You can always rotate between them every 6-12 weeks.

For me, BuiltStrong is my meat and potatoes 3x/week.

Depending on my [erratic] work schedule, I may perform an AXE session or two or do something else.

 

[Antti]

@Antti Have you done kettlebell swing AXE style a last few weeks? How do you feel overall ? I tried to incoporate swing into my current training week and keep feels like my IT band is overload. I think I get about 7-8 sets before my left IT band gets tight. Probably because I pull sumo and my swing stance is wider than normal people (I have a very wide handle kettlebell).

I have not. Circumstamces... or laziness, you decide. I have reasons, but if I was really excited about it, I suppose I would have gone at it somehow.

In your shoes, I wouldn't worry about the number of sets you achieve in a single session. It likely will increase with time. You could also try spacing clusters of AXE sets.

Last, try some massage and such on your adductor, from the knee all the way to the top of your groin.

 

[Jim Madden]

Working on AXE H2H swings, I moved pretty quickly through 32KG and 36KG to 40KG staying very loyal to all the stop signs. I hung out at 40KG x 4 x 30 for a few sessions, and it became very chill. This morning I moved up to 40KG x 6, and whoa, the party started! That was the first time I've failed the talk test short of 20 sets. I'm looking forward to settling in with this KB now! As Pavel claims in the book, moving from 4 to 6 is not just adding two reps!

 

[Pavel]

Working on AXE H2H swings, I moved pretty quickly through 32KG and 36KG to 40KG staying very loyal to all the stop signs. I hung out at 40KG x 4 x 30 for a few sessions, and it became very chill. This morning I moved up to 40KG x 6, and whoa, the party started! That was the first time I've failed the talk test short of 20 sets. I'm looking forward to settling in with this KB now! As Pavel claims in the book, moving from 4 to 6 is not just adding two reps!

Enjoy, Jim. ;]

 

[Pavel]

@Antti Have you done kettlebell swing AXE style a last few weeks? How do you feel overall ? I tried to incoporate swing into my current training week and keep feels like my IT band is overload. I think I get about 7-8 sets before my left IT band gets tight. Probably because I pull sumo and my swing stance is wider than normal people (I have a very wide handle kettlebell).

Hung, this should not be happening. See a specialist.

 

[Steve Freides]

my swing stance is wider than normal people (I have a very wide handle kettlebell)

This is a reason to experiment with pointing your thumbs somewhat to the back as you pass through your knees - it will give you more space. I do this whenever I swing two bells and sometimes even for one.

-S-