astockman
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Is there anyway I can jump on board this as well? I would love to join y’all.
Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic
- Thread starter Harald Motz
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Is there anyway I can jump on board this as well? I would love to join y’all.
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
1. There is no best.
2. By program or by feel.
3. Candidly, this has to come from within; and without it, you won’t hang on very long. It’s an interesting topic for sure.
For everyone reading along
1. Kettlebell Simple and Sinister is all these things. The training is explosive swings done with sufficient rest for aerobic (mostly) recovery. The getup is the strength portion.
2. The idea of S and S is that it can co-exist with an almost unlimited selection of other physical activities.
3. What else you do is up to you.
Aerobic work has a long-standing reputation for being healthy, so long as you avoid the all-too-common practice of overdoing the intensity. So run if you like.
Want to do the explosive work paired with aerobic work, both on the same skill? Go for it. Runners have called it fartlek and it’s nothing new. Add strength training or not, your call, but note that doing your explosive work in certain ways can build serious strength.
Want to do the explosive work and pair it with strength training that’s not getups? That works, too.
Want to pair strength training with aerobic work and not do any explosive work? People have been doing that for years. The old body builders would lift then go fro a jog. The latest research suggests that you might be missing out on the “mitochondria party” but that doesn’t mean you’re doing anything bad, although it does suggest to us now that you could do bettter.
Want to try something awesome? Do any of the above - they’re all somewhere between good and very good.
JMO, but I don’t think anyone’s mileage will vary.
-S-
1. Kettlebell Simple and Sinister is all these things. The training is explosive swings done with sufficient rest for aerobic (mostly) recovery. The getup is the strength portion.
2. The idea of S and S is that it can co-exist with an almost unlimited selection of other physical activities.
3. What else you do is up to you.
Aerobic work has a long-standing reputation for being healthy, so long as you avoid the all-too-common practice of overdoing the intensity. So run if you like.
Want to do the explosive work paired with aerobic work, both on the same skill? Go for it. Runners have called it fartlek and it’s nothing new. Add strength training or not, your call, but note that doing your explosive work in certain ways can build serious strength.
Want to do the explosive work and pair it with strength training that’s not getups? That works, too.
Want to pair strength training with aerobic work and not do any explosive work? People have been doing that for years. The old body builders would lift then go fro a jog. The latest research suggests that you might be missing out on the “mitochondria party” but that doesn’t mean you’re doing anything bad, although it does suggest to us now that you could do bettter.
Want to try something awesome? Do any of the above - they’re all somewhere between good and very good.
JMO, but I don’t think anyone’s mileage will vary.
-S-
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
@Nasser M :
- for pressing just pick one and do it a few quality reps in around 10-20min on most days.
- build a few weeks volume with 5-7 reps per repeat with a weight you can swing strong and powerfully on both sides for around 20 seconds. Then as Al said go by feel and sprinkle in repeats with the heavier bell as explained in S&S
- for pressing just pick one and do it a few quality reps in around 10-20min on most days.
- build a few weeks volume with 5-7 reps per repeat with a weight you can swing strong and powerfully on both sides for around 20 seconds. Then as Al said go by feel and sprinkle in repeats with the heavier bell as explained in S&S
I developed trust into A+A as my numbers went down: doing the same work output in the same timeframe with considerable less heart beats over (multiple) months, not session to session and not week to week, but in the beginning it can go quite rapidly though. For that I wear a hr monitor.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Faith in the system, I look at the system as so simple and foolproof even I can do it.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Are you talking about A+A in general or something more specific?
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
This was the metric I looked at as well, when I started doing the on-the-minute protocols. After that, I looked at unintentional compression of rest periods. I would start each new repeat when I felt rested, instead of based on time. If I could do the same volume, with the same level of exertion, in less time, that was a good indicator that things were going well. Eventually the rest periods stop getting shorter, and that's a sign that it's time for more volume (more repeats or more weight).
At this point, I don't track things very closely. I'll just occasionally look back at the last few months of HR graphs and volume. Since I started A+A snatching, I've increased my heavy snatch weight by 8 kg (33%) and HR during training is lower. Once you commit to the process, the results are pretty motivating. Takes time, though.
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
When I look back when I began working on Al's input I can say: I have done that "for years".
great results Matt.
Alactic ballistics are great + Aerobics makes it even greater I am continuously amazed about the synergy:
The last days I have done tons of 48/50kg swings, and after that or later I do my rowing for recovery. The above hr graph was directly after a 30min session which had a good amount of workload. I just rowed for nothing else than recovery. From the start on to the end I pulled at a 500m pace of 2:27.5 min with the same power output. Snail slow, but I don't care.
My hr peaked at 128bpm and then slowly got lower to 116bpm to the end. As the previous 30 min session had its intensity, my hr directly after is fairly high even at low power output. The aerobic system slowly comes around pays for anaerobic debts , clears the little mess in the system. The mitochondria party on glucose, fat, lactat, and oxygen. That is the cool stuff the aerobic system does, and with a hr monitor I can watch its wonderful doing in real time.
Mike C
Level 4 Valued Member
Can you elaborate on this point? I'm guessing the A+A protocols of Al, Harald, et al. would accomplish this, but I'm curious about any other thoughts on it.
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Power, or explosiveness, is the speed of strength (acceleration); thus, explosive (power) training builds strength.
@Mike C, what Al said.
I'll put it in my own words, which may help or may hinder your understanding - let me know.
If you're strong enough to snatch a 32 kg kettlebell explosively for 5 reps, and you work your way up to being able to do that with a 40 kg bell, you'll have gotten stronger along the way without doing "strength" training but via doing your "explosive, A+A" training. So a person might train aerobically, e.g., jogging or walking, and do something like A+A snatches, and could very well find out that, with little or no "strength" training, they've become stronger.
-S-
I'll put it in my own words, which may help or may hinder your understanding - let me know.
If you're strong enough to snatch a 32 kg kettlebell explosively for 5 reps, and you work your way up to being able to do that with a 40 kg bell, you'll have gotten stronger along the way without doing "strength" training but via doing your "explosive, A+A" training. So a person might train aerobically, e.g., jogging or walking, and do something like A+A snatches, and could very well find out that, with little or no "strength" training, they've become stronger.
-S-
Mike C
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks for the input!@Mike C, what Al said.
I'll put it in my own words, which may help or may hinder your understanding - let me know.
If you're strong enough to snatch a 32 kg kettlebell explosively for 5 reps, and you work your way up to being able to do that with a 40 kg bell, you'll have gotten stronger along the way without doing "strength" training but via doing your "explosive, A+A" training. So a person might train aerobically, e.g., jogging or walking, and do something like A+A snatches, and could very well find out that, with little or no "strength" training, they've become stronger.
-S-
I was most interested in examples of "certain ways" of doing explosive training that would lead to strength gains. I thought the A+A type protocols might be one example of such a way, but am also curious if there are others.
Mike C
Level 4 Valued Member
Will do.
Mike C
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks, Al. I'm looking forward to finally hearing you on the podcast.
fractal
Level 7 Valued Member
@Mike C, what Al said.
I'll put it in my own words, which may help or may hinder your understanding - let me know.
If you're strong enough to snatch a 32 kg kettlebell explosively for 5 reps, and you work your way up to being able to do that with a 40 kg bell, you'll have gotten stronger along the way without doing "strength" training but via doing your "explosive, A+A" training. So a person might train aerobically, e.g., jogging or walking, and do something like A+A snatches, and could very well find out that, with little or no "strength" training, they've become stronger.
-S-
I can attest to this. In 10 weeks of snatching with minimal upper body grinds, I'm making great headway on breaking a very long standing pressing plateau.
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
I've deadlifted maybe 5 times in the past 2 years, but based on those few times I would estimate my DL 1RM to easily be equal to or higher than it was last time I was deadlifting seriously. At some point I'll have to take a few days to groove the movement for a couple sessions and then see what my lifetime PR is, but I'm in no hurry. Certainly, I could have increased my DL more/faster by deadlifting, but I think the snatch has better carryover to the rest of my life.
On a basic level, any time you increase the weights you can handle with a swing, snatch, clean, or jerk (kettlebell or barbell) you are likely increasing your strength as well. Same goes for increasing you max jump height/distance or sprinting faster.
The stronger you already are, though, the less true that is. An experienced powerlifter isn't going to get much stronger from sprinting, but a regular Joe certainly will.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Mike I can add my own experience here if it helps you to understand what this method delivers (A+A).
I'm a 59 yo with some high mileage, 41 yrs weight training and 32 yrs MA (Korean karate) and like everyone else have had my share of injuries along the way. Thankfully I'm still viable and vital for the most part.
I've had a shoulder injury (baseball throw) for years, to get ready for heavier snatching I used the VWC protocol by Kenneth Jay, it's high volume lighter snatching primarily. This worked well for me and one of the side effects I found was I gained strength all over. The only problem is it's highly glycolytic training and not the best for the long term (although 1 session/wk has worked for some for years. I did too much too fast and it bit me when the weather got hot.
Enter A+A.. Once I started on Al's protocol the strength gains accelerated. I'm talking about all terrain strength, one of the gains I made was going from a 40k getup max to a 44k without training getups (not heavy anyway). Swinging the 48k used to feel heavy for me, now not so much, same for double cleans as everything is easier.
Those are some obvious examples but there are many more, and you can add in the LED work for better aerobic fitness.
Better aerobic fitness = better recovery, better recovery = more strength, more strength = stronger body and better aerobic fitness which in turn = more strength (more work at the same or less biological cost). The whole program cycles over and over and over, and the great part is I don't have to waste time thinking or program hopping, I just put in the work and get stronger without stress.
Al is a genius IMO, he has taken the simple, unexciting and somewhat mundane pieces and created a strength and fitness masterpiece.
@Mike C, Al really did say it best. Explosive lifting includes strength by definition, so if your explosive lifting improves, so does your strength. (Perhaps that's a bit oversimplified, but not much, really.)
-S-
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
another variation on the A+A theme with set-repeats of 10 with explosive jumps and push ups, and "just sitting". Meditating A+A:
131max hr - 91avg hr - 57min hr
This was A+A without equipment but still displaying power. One of the main aspects I am interested in and motivates immensely is improved recovery, and to develop the ability to do so. As an A+A session can have many repeats there are as many opportunities to be getting a good set up, mastery of execution and additionally many occasions to rest.
A+A is a great playing field like no other (maybe) to learn or use some relaxation strategies, to bring down hr and breathing effectively. It can be fast and loose, always good. I used for some time a bit of light club swinging between heavy snatch repeats which works quite well. Just a bit of waking around works. When I do some rowing repeats the just obvious active rest is just pulling very easily. A great thing to explore is Pavel's breath control as described in Kettlebell Simple and Sinister. That is real double focus: on the work and the rest. It can make rest quite hard, as it is not easy to control the breath with a harder beating heart. It is really humbling to see or better to feel that you are not as self-controlled as you pretend to be.
In the session above I used the following strategy: after the jumps, I shook my limbs a bit then I got down on the ground as I have to anyway, if doing push ups next. Then I sat on my zafu and just practiced some breath control while keeping upright sitting posture. Then came push up repeats, then I immediately sat on the cushion again. Then I literally jumped of my zafu for the next jumps. After the first two jump repeats my hr got below 60bpm. Then as to be expected with further repeats hr increased slightly all over, as I did the repeats emom.
Although the hr in general was quite low breath control was not easy on every breath. It was a very good experimentation field as the overall exercise stress was relatively low. I can hear my heart beating in my ears and I can nicely watch, how my breathing pattern affects hr in real time on my phone. Even if the hr is slightly over resting hr, it still beats harder then as in a state of full rest that can be felt as a mild discomfort.
later, I balanced the ups and downs of alactics out, as I went for an hour steady state, or doing just hr shenanigans:
As I like to say A+A is work, but not "hard" work. So I just keep working it.
131max hr - 91avg hr - 57min hrThis was A+A without equipment but still displaying power. One of the main aspects I am interested in and motivates immensely is improved recovery, and to develop the ability to do so. As an A+A session can have many repeats there are as many opportunities to be getting a good set up, mastery of execution and additionally many occasions to rest.
A+A is a great playing field like no other (maybe) to learn or use some relaxation strategies, to bring down hr and breathing effectively. It can be fast and loose, always good. I used for some time a bit of light club swinging between heavy snatch repeats which works quite well. Just a bit of waking around works. When I do some rowing repeats the just obvious active rest is just pulling very easily. A great thing to explore is Pavel's breath control as described in Kettlebell Simple and Sinister. That is real double focus: on the work and the rest. It can make rest quite hard, as it is not easy to control the breath with a harder beating heart. It is really humbling to see or better to feel that you are not as self-controlled as you pretend to be.
In the session above I used the following strategy: after the jumps, I shook my limbs a bit then I got down on the ground as I have to anyway, if doing push ups next. Then I sat on my zafu and just practiced some breath control while keeping upright sitting posture. Then came push up repeats, then I immediately sat on the cushion again. Then I literally jumped of my zafu for the next jumps. After the first two jump repeats my hr got below 60bpm. Then as to be expected with further repeats hr increased slightly all over, as I did the repeats emom.
Although the hr in general was quite low breath control was not easy on every breath. It was a very good experimentation field as the overall exercise stress was relatively low. I can hear my heart beating in my ears and I can nicely watch, how my breathing pattern affects hr in real time on my phone. Even if the hr is slightly over resting hr, it still beats harder then as in a state of full rest that can be felt as a mild discomfort.
later, I balanced the ups and downs of alactics out, as I went for an hour steady state, or doing just hr shenanigans:
As I like to say A+A is work, but not "hard" work. So I just keep working it.
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