Good to know. There are plenty of simple dietary methods out there to specifically burn fat without going deep "Joel Greene style."
Best of luck!
Barbell Can I lose weight and gain strength at the same time using greasing the groove?
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Best of luck!
SteveR
Level 6 Valued Member
Everybody has got to find out what works for them as an individual, but I am personally finding as I have reduced carbs (not Keto but significant for me) and added healthy fats to roughly balance my macro grams at the same total calories, I am able to lose fat slowly and maintain/gain some strength.
This is at 69 years old and 5'8" 175 lbs and just KB C&P 40lbs x 7 reps each arm, today. Not front page news but a record for me. And have lost 6 lbs in the last few months using 115 grams of protein per day ( .7 grams / lb of body weight)
So I say yes, you can gain strength and lose weight at the same time as long as you are patient and don't rush either. Keep in mind that changes to your diet can add significant short term stress (on top of exercise) to your body depending on how drastic the changes are.
I believe you can find the sweet spot that gets the results you are looking for if you'll be kind to your body and listen to what it is telling you as you make and tweak changes.
Best of success
This is at 69 years old and 5'8" 175 lbs and just KB C&P 40lbs x 7 reps each arm, today. Not front page news but a record for me. And have lost 6 lbs in the last few months using 115 grams of protein per day ( .7 grams / lb of body weight)
So I say yes, you can gain strength and lose weight at the same time as long as you are patient and don't rush either. Keep in mind that changes to your diet can add significant short term stress (on top of exercise) to your body depending on how drastic the changes are.
I believe you can find the sweet spot that gets the results you are looking for if you'll be kind to your body and listen to what it is telling you as you make and tweak changes.
Best of success
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Every year, as part of weightlifting competition prep, I lose fat (due to pre weigh-in cutting) and gain strength at the same time.
I've done this for years, so much so that it's an annual routine for me.
So, yes, one can lose fat and gain strength at the same time.
However...
Adding lean muscle mass and losing fat at the same time is a different matter, especially if you're not a newbie, not obese, not detrained, and already an experienced lifter.
When I go through a hypertrophy block in the winter, I have to be in a caloric surplus.
I've done this for years, so much so that it's an annual routine for me.
So, yes, one can lose fat and gain strength at the same time.
However...
Adding lean muscle mass and losing fat at the same time is a different matter, especially if you're not a newbie, not obese, not detrained, and already an experienced lifter.
When I go through a hypertrophy block in the winter, I have to be in a caloric surplus.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Occam's Razor
This principle states that simplest answer is usually the right one.
In the case of weight loss, the means decreasing calorie intake lead weight loss.
That is why it need to be part of a weight loss plan.
The Twinkie Diet
Mark Haub, MS Nutrition, instructor at Kansas State demonstrated the foundation of a well formulated weight loss diet start with caloric reduction.
To prove the point, Haub went on a Calorie Restricted Twinkie Diet (consuming junk food). Haub lost 27 ls in around three months, while improving his cholesterol numbers.
What You Eat
While what you eat matters and play a role in weight loss, it secondary to calorie intake.
Cyclical Ketogenic Diet
Research by Dr Jacob Wilson (University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) demonstrated that while weight loss was possible with this approach two thing occurred.
1) More muscle mass occurred with less body fat loss; comparative the "Modified Atkins Ketogenic Diet".
2) The refeeding of carbohydrates over a one to two day period blocked individual from getting back into ketosis for around 4 days.
Thus, an individual consumed carbohydrate on Saturday and Sunday, were not able to get back into ketosis untii Friday.
Carrots
Carrots have a high glycemic index but not many carbohydrates or calories, plus they have fiber, which slow down absorption.
Secondly, how low carrots are in carbohydrates and calories makes hard to consume too many carbohydrates or calories by eating them.
Doubtful
Based on this information, it is doubtful that he is on a Ketogenic Diet, in ketosis.
My Experience On Keto
I have been on the Ketogenic Diet since 2016 due to a metabolic condition.
I went through a learning process for about a year. I have most of it down but and still learning.
Ensuring I Am On Keto
To ensure that I am on the Ketogenic Diet, I...
1) Count all my Macro Nutrients the and Percentages that I am consuming to make sure I am in ketosis.
2) I monitor my ketones with a...
a) Blood Ketone Meter
b) Glucometer
c) Ketonix Breath Ketone Meter
What I have found in going over research information and based on my experience with the Ketogenic Diet, is that most of individual who think they are on a Ketogenic Diet are not.
With that in mind...
1) Don't let him rattle you cage.
2) Base your comments on research and logic rather than emotion.
As someone one said, "Your feeling don't matter, facts do."
Take Home Message
1) While I enjoy the Ketogenic Diet, I rarely recommend it.
The reason is the is hard to follow and maintain. The harder you make something for someone, the less likely they are to stick with it.
2) Calorie Count
As I have previously posted, due to my metabolic diagnosis, I over reacted...letting my emotions override logic.
I combined Intermittent Fasting (two meals a day) with the Ketogenic Diet; losing 17 lbs in 35 days. That wasn't my objective.
I then decided to gain the weight back. I gain back the 17 lbs on the Ketogenic Diet by dramatically increasing my Fat Calorie Intake.
Since Carbohydrates are limited to 50 gram per day and Protein is limited to no more than 25% of Macro Intake, the only solution was to jack my Fat Intake up.
3) Intermittent Fasting Advocate
I am an advocate of Intermittent Fasting for weight loss.
Nothing to count. No meal preparation required. Just skip a meal every now and then.
What exercise does in conjunction with a well formulated weight loss diet is...
1) Preserves Muscle Mass
2) Increases Insulin Sensitivity
3) Slightly increase Metabolic Rate
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I personally wouldn't use GTG to increase barbell strength. Starting with a 5 x5 approach and moving on from there is what I would do.
If you want to do 2 sessions or more per day you can use these other session to work on different skills.
Andi-in-BKK
Level 5 Valued Member
I’m going assume that you are late teens early 20s because of going into the Army (or already in?)
Because of that, I’ll say if the primary driver/motivation is a temporary drop of 30 pounds or so, just about any caloric deficit (literally pick a diet with a 300-500/day kcal deficit and in 9 months to a year you’ll be down 30 pounds- track it on an app like MyFitnessPal). Because you are trying to maintain muscle mass, you want to continue to lift the entire time, and possibly supplement with protein and BCAAs (I don’t have experience with the latter- but bro science says it’s good for maintaining muscle)
If you haven’t been training regularly, literally just lifting will increase your lifts on a neurological level, and newbie gains will bless you with some fat loss and simultaneous muscle gain.
If you are looking for a sustainable drop with muscle building, you’ll get a bit with newbie gains, but to actually put on muscle you’ll need a surplus. Look up vertical diet (gradual increase in calories while eating clean to raise your BMR until you start adding BF% then a gradual cut from the high number for a sustainable way of eating).
I’ve tried both ways, and vertical diet is so much more sustainable in the long term (cutting weight at 2500 calories a day versus 1500)
Because of that, I’ll say if the primary driver/motivation is a temporary drop of 30 pounds or so, just about any caloric deficit (literally pick a diet with a 300-500/day kcal deficit and in 9 months to a year you’ll be down 30 pounds- track it on an app like MyFitnessPal). Because you are trying to maintain muscle mass, you want to continue to lift the entire time, and possibly supplement with protein and BCAAs (I don’t have experience with the latter- but bro science says it’s good for maintaining muscle)
If you haven’t been training regularly, literally just lifting will increase your lifts on a neurological level, and newbie gains will bless you with some fat loss and simultaneous muscle gain.
If you are looking for a sustainable drop with muscle building, you’ll get a bit with newbie gains, but to actually put on muscle you’ll need a surplus. Look up vertical diet (gradual increase in calories while eating clean to raise your BMR until you start adding BF% then a gradual cut from the high number for a sustainable way of eating).
I’ve tried both ways, and vertical diet is so much more sustainable in the long term (cutting weight at 2500 calories a day versus 1500)
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Reality
That sounds good. However, it doesn't workout that way in real life.
With that said, let break it down...
The General Adaptation Syndrome
Hans Seyle, MD, PhD determine this around 1923.
Essentially, in life things adapt or die, as means of surviving.
The variations of Covid 19 have demonstrated that.
Periodization Training
The underlying principle behind Periodization Training is built on it.
Training Cycles stress the body to a certain degree, then back offs allow recover.
Essentially, recovery allow the body become stronger and/or increase muscle mass, as a means of ensuring survival.
MATADOR Diet
Research regarding Periodization occurs with dieting for weight loss, as well.
As with Strength Periodization Training, calorie intake is adjusted up and down as a means increasing Metabolic Rate to ensure weight loss is maintained in the long run.
The research data demonstrate that this method enables individuals to maintain more muscle mass and lose more body fat.
The Foundation For Weight Loss
The Velocity Diet is nothing new.
Calorie Rotation has been what Bodybuilder have done for decades.
It reinforce the MATADOR Diet research.
mTOR, Mammalian Target of Rapamycin
Leucine in Branch Chain Amino Acids turns on mTOR. mTOR is the trigger for anabolic growth.
Between 2.5 to over 3.0 gram of Leucine per serving is required to trigger mTOR.
The Caveats of Leucine
These have been covered in previous post...
1) Age Dependent Dosage
The amount of Leucine needed is around 2.5 gram for younger individual, around 20 year old. Around 30 gram of whole food protein provides enough Leucine for this group.
Older individual need over 3.0 gram per serving, Around 40 gram of whole food protein provides enough Leucine for this group.
If an individual isn't consuming that amount of whole meal protein, Branch Chain can be added to the meal.
2) Refractory Period
Research shows that Muscle Protein Synthesis is optimized when protein intake is every 4-6 hours.
Muscle Protein Synthesis is like a sponge.
The sponge absorbs the most water when has dried out.
This is the same when it come to maximizing Muscle Protein Synthesis
Tracking Calorie Intake
Good point. With any Weight Loss Plan, you need to monitor calorie intake.
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Halfakneecap
Level 6 Valued Member
Yes, using a calorie tracking app has been the most effective thing for me. Makes it much more simple. Not always easy, cookies call to me, but i find the calorie tracker invaluable
Andi-in-BKK
Level 5 Valued Member
My experience supports literally every last bit of what you said. I always get a stall at my body adapts to my current demands.
I think the detail about 300-500 calorie deficit should have come with a caveat, *from your current BMR* as BMR would be what’s adapted as you mention. It’s also what causes folks on the vertical, velocity diets to have to increase calories continuously (my bulk has stalled at 3000kcal/day so I’ll have to increase again pretty soon to keep aging muscle)
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Overall
Overall, I supported most of you information.
9 Months
You statement regarding 9 months appeared to indicate that maintaining the same calorie deficit during that time limit would work.
My reply was that doesn't happen in the real world, which it doesn't. I then provide information as to why.
Vertical Diet
Your information on the Vertical Diet indicates calorie rotation is one of the keys for maintaining weight loss.
As I indicated...
1) Research and anecdotal data confirm rotating calorie intake is necessary. Essentially, it mimics Periodization Training.
2) Rotating Calories is nothing new. Bodybuilder have implemented this method for decades.
The Rotation Diet
In the 1980's, this book came out.
The concept was correct. However, the daily calorie intake recommended was wrong.
Body For Life
In the 1990's. this book came out. It addressed rotating calories for weight loss, as well.
300 - 500 Calorie Deficit
That is a fairly good recommendation.
Dr John Ivy and Dr Layne Norton, independent of each other, determined that a calorie deficit of approximately 20% from an individual present daily intake was optimal at...
1) Decreasing Weight; maximizing body fat loss.
2) Preserving maximal muscle mass.
That 20% deficit usually falls in the 300-500 calorie deficit range.
Branch Chain Amino Acids
You mentioned them.
I provide more in depth information.
Along with that I went into the amount of Protein Per Meal to trigger an anabolic effect.
I also provide information on the Refractory Period necessary to ensure optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis.
Amount of Protein Per Day
While the amount of Protein Per Day is important; what is even more important is the amount of Protein Per Serving necessary to elicit an anabolic effect. This specifically has to do with the amount of Leucine consumed.
Research (Dr Donald Layman) shows that the majority of people only consume enough Protein at one meal to maintain muscle mass, let alone increase it. That meals is dinner.
That is one of the reason why as people age, they lose muscle mass.
Andi-in-BKK
Level 5 Valued Member
Yes sir. We are in agreement. I didn’t intend for my second post to come across snarky. Just a statement of agreement.
I appreciate the more in depth scientific backing for things we are experiencing.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
I too am in the camp that diets are silly…it’s not the calories but where they come from…potato chips, soda, candy calories vs calories from lean meats, veggies fruits…
Honestly, people should really know whats good to eat and what’s not. If you’re eating wholesome foods and going lighter on the carbs, I see no reason to count calories. Does the food you buy come from the earth or a factory?
As far as leaning up, caffeine helps.
Honestly, people should really know whats good to eat and what’s not. If you’re eating wholesome foods and going lighter on the carbs, I see no reason to count calories. Does the food you buy come from the earth or a factory?
As far as leaning up, caffeine helps.
I've been cutting for the last 4 months while trying to maintain the strength I had built up over the last year and a half and have had great results so far. I've lost 18lb and have actually managed to hit PRs in most of my lifts. My squat 5RM went up 5lb, my DL 1RM went up 15lb, and my BP 1RM went up 10lb. This is also a great time to work on (weighted) chin ups and/or dips. You can progress quite fast since you're losing weight every week. I've managed to work up to a 60lb chinup during this cut.
I've been taking my nutrition advice from the folks over at Barbell Medicine and Rennaissance Periodization. That puts me in the "calories-in-calories-out" camp. Essentially their advice is to set a deficit to where you're losing roughly 1% of BW each week. More than that will likely result in muscle/strength loss. Eat about 1g of protein per lb of BW and a good amount of carbs, especially before workouts. Keeping fats lower allows you to eat more food and stay fuller since carbs are less calorically dense than fats.
As for training, I started out with 5x5. When that stalled I switched to a top set of 5 followed by 4 sets at 80-90%. When that stalled I switched to 5 sets of 3. For the lifts where that is becoming difficult to keep up (DL), I'm just warming up to a top single, double, or triple and I call it a day. Prior to cutting, I had spent a lot of time doing 5s, but I've come to really enjoy the lower rep ranges while in a caloric deficit.
I've been taking my nutrition advice from the folks over at Barbell Medicine and Rennaissance Periodization. That puts me in the "calories-in-calories-out" camp. Essentially their advice is to set a deficit to where you're losing roughly 1% of BW each week. More than that will likely result in muscle/strength loss. Eat about 1g of protein per lb of BW and a good amount of carbs, especially before workouts. Keeping fats lower allows you to eat more food and stay fuller since carbs are less calorically dense than fats.
As for training, I started out with 5x5. When that stalled I switched to a top set of 5 followed by 4 sets at 80-90%. When that stalled I switched to 5 sets of 3. For the lifts where that is becoming difficult to keep up (DL), I'm just warming up to a top single, double, or triple and I call it a day. Prior to cutting, I had spent a lot of time doing 5s, but I've come to really enjoy the lower rep ranges while in a caloric deficit.
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