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Kettlebell Does anyone else think the "big jumps" of kettlebells is a little fishy?
- Thread starter Eric Wilson
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An excellent strategy, although my choice of words would have been "keep the volume but divided into fewer, longer sets." It's kind of a "step cycle meets escalating density training" thing. I have often mixed these two:
Total reps "as" sets of ...
5 as 3, 2
8 as 3, 3, 2 - add volume by adding a set
8 as 4, 4 - same volume, fewer but longer sets
10 as 3, 3, 2, 2 - add volume by adding a set but now all shorter sets
10 as 3, 4, 3 - same volume, fewer sets, longest set is longer
10 as 5, 3, 2 - same volume, same sets, but longest set is longer yet again
10 as 5, 5 - same volume, fewer sets
There's a lot one can do with this idea.
-S-
Hey, I like to hear these kinds of ramblings!
Indeed, forums that don't require a flame suit seem to be an increasingly rare thing these days.-S-
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
Do you maintain the heavy, light, medium days? Or is every day the same after week 13?
Messing with the number of rungs per ladder would be awkward in this scheme.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
I have to say, I thought this thread was going to fade away a few pages ago. Thanks so much for all of your interest in helping me get to the next kettlebell!
Here are my plans:
- post a form check video soon
- increase pressing volume, both horizontal and vertical
- include various rack carries, heavy cleans, single kettlebell squats to strengthen rack position
- include bottoms up presses and carries to strengthen grip
- GTG on both presses and pushups, to increase volume still more.
If I can avoid overtraining, this should certainly work, given time.
Not gonna lie, if there were a 14kg bell in my house, I'd be using it. But I'm going to get to where the 16kg is an ordinary press either way.
Here are my plans:
- post a form check video soon
- increase pressing volume, both horizontal and vertical
- include various rack carries, heavy cleans, single kettlebell squats to strengthen rack position
- include bottoms up presses and carries to strengthen grip
- GTG on both presses and pushups, to increase volume still more.
If I can avoid overtraining, this should certainly work, given time.
Not gonna lie, if there were a 14kg bell in my house, I'd be using it. But I'm going to get to where the 16kg is an ordinary press either way.
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Chrisdavisjr
Level 7 Valued Member
I wouldn't worry too much about that; it takes quite a lot to overtrain. Be consistent, monitor your recovery. Some days you'll be a bit sore when you start training.
The warm-up as prescribed in S&S is a great way of 'checking in' to see if you're able to train: I had days where I felt like garbage but felt great after the warm-up. Once or twice, I still felt lousy after warming-up and then I decided to take the day off, but only once or twice.
Week 14:
Heavy Day: 8x 2,3,5
Easy: 4x 2,3,5 (~50%)
Medium: 6x 2,3,5 (~75%)
Week 15
HD: 9
ED: 5
MD: 7
Week 16
HD: 10
ED: 6
MD: 8
From week 17 and on, keep Medium en Easy days the same as 16 and only work up with the Heavy Day ladders. So 17 HD: 1x 2,3,5,10; 8x 2,3,5. 18 HD: 2x 2,3,5,10; 6x 2,3,5. Just like you do with the original RoP format
DuncanGB
Level 6 Valued Member
A necessary edit, Eric - well done, mate
randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
There are plenty of strategies for bridging the jumps between the traditional bell sizes. One thing to keep in mind is the exponential nature of the forces encountered in swings and snatches. Following is from a semi heretical piece on force production i wrote a decade ago vis a vis centripetal force in the swing, which is the force required to keep the CCOG over the base of support and to keep the bell moving on an arc. “Consider that the Centripetal Force increases exponentially with increases in the speed of the kettlebell. For example, if the speed of the kettlebell doubles, the centripetal force will quadruple. If the speed of the kettlebell triples, the centripetal force will increase nine-fold. Thus, one can approximate the forces encountered with a heavier bell simply by swinging a lighter bell faster. “
Timmer C
Level 6 Valued Member
Listening to my body and its injuries led me to a conservative approach with increasing the weight in the TGU. During the first several months of doing Turkish Get Ups, I was still suffering from subungual haematoma (runner’s toe) in both of my big toes from the marathon running and other distance running I used to do. When doing the part of the Turkish Get Up where one goes from the lunge to standing, rising up off of my toes could cause significant pain and loss of balance (and thus risk of injury) if using a kettlebell beyond a certain weight. (And alternatively keeping my toes straight and trying to rise up off my instep flat against the floor was a whole other level of pain when the muscle cramps would kick in.)
Progressing with the Turkish Get Up means listening to my body and its limitations: runner’s toes, skinned knees, shoulders issues, aging, etc. Plotting a patient course has meant I’ve stuck with kettlebells longer than I would have if I had tried to pursue a course too aggressive for me.
Progressing with the Turkish Get Up means listening to my body and its limitations: runner’s toes, skinned knees, shoulders issues, aging, etc. Plotting a patient course has meant I’ve stuck with kettlebells longer than I would have if I had tried to pursue a course too aggressive for me.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
Update -- it's been about 12 weeks. Spent about 10 weeks with increased press volume, both horizontal and vertical.
Took a few days rest and tested myself on 16kg press -- 0 reps, right or left.
Had been hoping to start S&T with 16kg, but obviously that doesn't work when you can't consistently hit rep one.
So I started ROP with 12kg+5lb -- I stack a 5lb dollar store kb on top of my 12kg, putting my hand through both. I'm leaving out the cleans, because you can't really clean two kbs in one hand sensibly.
Been at ROP for two weeks, my biggest day yet is only 4 ladders of 3, so volume isn't that high yet.
This morning was a variety day, and before I started my double front squats, I thought I'd like to try the 16kg. Right side was easy, maybe could have done two. Left side went up also, form not as good.
So thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. I'm sure it would have been possible for me to get to pressing the 16kg bell without my improvising an intermediate 14kg-ish kb. But there is no question that progress came faster when I was working with a kettlebell that was more in the 5-8 rep range.
Hopefully completing ROP in this way will get me to where I can work with the 16kg regularly.
So to my original thesis -- sometimes the big jumps in kb sizes is not a feature -- sometimes it actually slows progress.
Took a few days rest and tested myself on 16kg press -- 0 reps, right or left.
Had been hoping to start S&T with 16kg, but obviously that doesn't work when you can't consistently hit rep one.
So I started ROP with 12kg+5lb -- I stack a 5lb dollar store kb on top of my 12kg, putting my hand through both. I'm leaving out the cleans, because you can't really clean two kbs in one hand sensibly.
Been at ROP for two weeks, my biggest day yet is only 4 ladders of 3, so volume isn't that high yet.
This morning was a variety day, and before I started my double front squats, I thought I'd like to try the 16kg. Right side was easy, maybe could have done two. Left side went up also, form not as good.
So thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. I'm sure it would have been possible for me to get to pressing the 16kg bell without my improvising an intermediate 14kg-ish kb. But there is no question that progress came faster when I was working with a kettlebell that was more in the 5-8 rep range.
Hopefully completing ROP in this way will get me to where I can work with the 16kg regularly.
So to my original thesis -- sometimes the big jumps in kb sizes is not a feature -- sometimes it actually slows progress.
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
Eric, have you ever bothered to simply ask if you can or should use lighter KBs or make smaller jumps because you struggle with the old soviet convention of using just a 16, 24 and 32kg KB? This thread here sound like you want to find evidence you somehow got swindled instead of trying to find the best way to deal with what hinders you progress.
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Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
I'll grant that there are certain parts of KB culture that make me cranky. Sorry about that. But don't take that to meant that I haven't been consistently seeking and trying to find the approach that will lead to progress. There has never been in the time in the last year when I wasn't currrently doing the program that I believed would lead to the most progress.
Two weeks ago, I was hoping to report that my increased volume and adding horizontal pressing had resulted in the improvement I was looking for. When testing my self a few weeks ago, I was looking forward to posting here and saying that the advice I had received had worked, and I was ready to start ROP with the 16kg.
Hmm ... thinking about what you wrote -- it isn't so much that I'm trying to find evidence of a swindle -- rather I'd like others to recognize the swindle that happens consistently in the KB world. Or to recognize that giving the same answer to every question isn't helpful, or something.
If I'm not frequently enough asking for advice on what to try next, please keep in mind that once I get it in my mind to try a thing, it is six to twelve weeks before any other advice could be useful at all -- five to eight programming ideas get me through a year.
Two weeks ago, I was hoping to report that my increased volume and adding horizontal pressing had resulted in the improvement I was looking for. When testing my self a few weeks ago, I was looking forward to posting here and saying that the advice I had received had worked, and I was ready to start ROP with the 16kg.
Hmm ... thinking about what you wrote -- it isn't so much that I'm trying to find evidence of a swindle -- rather I'd like others to recognize the swindle that happens consistently in the KB world. Or to recognize that giving the same answer to every question isn't helpful, or something.
If I'm not frequently enough asking for advice on what to try next, please keep in mind that once I get it in my mind to try a thing, it is six to twelve weeks before any other advice could be useful at all -- five to eight programming ideas get me through a year.
Mo04
Level 6 Valued Member
This thread couldnt have come at a better time for me. I'm doing S&S and just moved from 16kg to 24kg (one set of 24kg). I'm really struggling with 24kg - there's no way I can do 1H swings with it. I'm able to do 2H swings and a set of (slighly shaky) TGU with the 24kg.
I've tried doing dead stop 1H swings with 24kg - but I'm not able to do them.
For now, I'm replacing the 1H swings with 2H swings with 24kg. Ive been comfortable with the 16kg for more than a month so thought it was good time to move up to next weight.
I'll continue doing 2H swings with 24kg in the hope it'll grow on me (or me into it).
I've tried doing dead stop 1H swings with 24kg - but I'm not able to do them.
For now, I'm replacing the 1H swings with 2H swings with 24kg. Ive been comfortable with the 16kg for more than a month so thought it was good time to move up to next weight.
I'll continue doing 2H swings with 24kg in the hope it'll grow on me (or me into it).
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
What? This forum is only a small part of the KB world. It's not even about just KBs or how to teach yourself how to use KBs. It's the forum of an organization that teaches KBs alongside barbells, calisthenics, stretching, endurance training etc. And just from reading here I would say that half the regulars here do their own thing anyways. I re-read some of your threads and you have been offered lot's of different advice on your issue with the KB press. From what I have seen you couldn't even be bothered to provide a video to have them check if there was something off with your technique.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
Two handed swings are great, I expect I will always have them as part of my weekly routine. One handed swings are not important to me, though I understand they are part of at least one program.
Wise move on building up to 10x10 2h swings with the 24kg..
There are also other options you can do with the 16kg one arm swings.. One clear option would be to add power to your swings
As for the getup, there are options such as slow the roll to elbow, do each rep much slower, my preference (not S and S by the book though)is multiple reps of a certain step+1 full getup..
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
You are correct, I never did post a form check video, though I did plan on it at a time. I became convinced (rightly or wrongly) that form wasn't the issue.
If you don't think there is a certain type of swindle that is typical to kettlebells, that's fine, I really don't to want to argue about that.
I've received much advice, and I've implemented much of it. Not all of it, there aren't enough days in the year. I'm thankful for the advice that I've received, and the helpfulness of most of the people here. I can't say I view all advice equally useful or valid, but I appreciate that people are trying to help, even when I conclude that their advice isn't helpful or safe for me.
Sorry if my posts offend you. That may seem like a non-apology apology, but if you have a grevience with me and how I've used the forum, maybe contact me directly and we can discuss it further, because I don't know what else to say.
Oscar
Level 7 Valued Member
Eric, maybe this post comes late, but I have found a more practical way of adding weight to the kettlebell. I attach a barbell plate to the kettlebell with a ratchet strap, like this:
In this case it was 2 plates of 2.5 kg.
You will need barbell plates with handles to pass the strap, like this one:
It works very well, and the attachment is firm enough to do repeated cleans with it.
I use it to attach 4 kg to a 20 kg kettlebells and use it for doubles with my 24, but it can work for your purpose as well.
Hope it helps.
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