Kettlebell Does anyone else think the "big jumps" of kettlebells is a little fishy?

[Mark Limbaga]

Maybe. My largest KB is 24kg currently. I've gotten to where 10 getups in 10 minutes is routine. That certainly increased my shoulder strength. Many would say I need to start working in the 32kg bell, but I'm not going down that road.

I'm not saying it's a bad plan, but for a man that weighs 60 kg and wants to be better at pressing 16kg, the risk-vs-reward of trying to get there with 32kg TGUs just doesn't seem right. I don't think I'll attempt a 32kg TGU before I can press 24kg.

I humbly say this ..

If you keep this mentality then you will always be limited..

As a guy who weighs 143-147 I used to have a similar mentality in terms of swinging heavy bells and doing getups with heavy bells..

Until I developed a paradigm shift in mentality, the bells do not scare me that much anymore but rather I know they would require more work but can be done...

If you upload a video of your 12 and 16kg presses, we can give you feedback so you can make more improvement that a 16kg press would not longer feel like a feat for you

 

[Dasho]

A lot of posts here, hopefully I'm not just repeating someone else's input, but TGUs honestly never did much for my pressing. I found the bent press to be a much quicker route to a heavier strict press. In my opinion, if you can strict press a weight with impeccable form, you should be able to get that same weight +8kg overhead somehow, be it bent press or otherwise.

 

[Eric Wilson]

I humbly say this ..

If you keep this mentality then you will always be limited..

As a guy who weighs 143-147 I used to have a similar mentality in terms of swinging heavy bells and doing getups with heavy bells..

Until I developed a paradigm shift in mentality, the bells do not scare me that much anymore but rather I know they would require more work but can be done...

If you upload a video of your 12 and 16kg presses, we can give you feedback so you can make more improvement that a 16kg press would not longer feel like a feat for you

TGUs are fine. I'm glad you enjoy them.

I appreciate what they did for me up to 24kg.

There are many ways to get strong, and we all make choices about how we invest our time. I'm choosing to not emphasise TGUs.

So I'll be limited in my ability to do heavy TGUs.

I might do a video, but not this week.

 

[Eric Wilson]

A lot of posts here, hopefully I'm not just repeating someone else's input, but TGUs honestly never did much for my pressing. I found the bent press to be a much quicker route to a heavier strict press. In my opinion, if you can strict press a weight with impeccable form, you should be able to get that same weight +8kg overhead somehow, be it bent press or otherwise.

Interesting.

I'm not going to find out if that is true for me. The TGU feels a little risky, but the bent press is downright scary to me.

I'm sure that it is safe enough if you have your technique really refined, but I'd rather work on movements that I find more enjoyable, such as the snatch, double clean, or press.

 

[watchnerd]

to get that same weight +8kg overhead somehow, be it bent press or otherwise.

Yeah....jerk it.

So much faster than a bent press.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Yeah....jerk it.

So much faster than a bent press.

+1. Push presses are also a good option if you want to get comfortable getting a heavy bell overhead. I can push press a 32kg bell any day of the week but I've never been able to strict press more than 28.

When I was training my TGUs regularly, I could do 5 per side at 40kg on a good day (I weighed around 64kg at the time).

I don't think I've ever done a bent press properly and it's not really something I'm into.

 

[Nacho]

Maybe. My largest KB is 24kg currently. I've gotten to where 10 getups in 10 minutes is routine. That certainly increased my shoulder strength. Many would say I need to start working in the 32kg bell, but I'm not going down that road.

I'm not saying it's a bad plan, but for a man that weighs 60 kg and wants to be better at pressing 16kg, the risk-vs-reward of trying to get there with 32kg TGUs just doesn't seem right. I don't think I'll attempt a 32kg TGU before I can press 24kg.

I see. Im only an expert of my own S&S journey. When I owned ”timeless 24kg”, I could press 16kg for maybe 10+ reps even though I had never done any pressing other than few reps few times a year just for fun. I understand there might be individual differences, but maybe you really should have someone check your pressing technique if thats the case.

In this podcast Tim Ferris shares (at 20:00) how hes pressing went up with few adjustments by one of instructors back then in Pavels previous company.

 

[Gepet]

OK, you guys have given me plenty of good ideas.

I'm hoping that by implementing various of these ideas I can get 16kg to my 5RM in 8-12 weeks. (It was 2RM last I checked a month ago.) Then I'll do ROP at 16kg, Lord willing.

If I'm not a place where I can start ROP (three ladders of three) then I'll post a form-check video to see if I'm doing something wrong.

A lot of people have suggested that you share a video of you pressing to ensure your technique is right. I wouldn't spend another 8-12 weeks training on my own before doing that..

 

[Pats]

I haven't gone through the whole thread but @Eric Wilson, you say that the 16kg KB is too heavy for you for the ROP, so... might I suggest the Soju and Tuba program before then?

I think it's a great "warming-up" program for the ROP as volume is A LOT less and goes up very slowly.

FYI, I am younger than you (30) but during quarantine, I bought a 28kg KB, went through S&T, took a week off, then ROP (next week is my last week) and while it wasn't easy, it's crazy how light the 28 KB feels to me now compared to when I started (I weigh <150 lbs).

If you want more hypertrophy, you could NOT clean before each press and superset the presses with pullups or rows (both amazing for hypertrophy). Take all the time you need, volume is a much more important factor than rest in this case.

Edit: fixed the link to correct article.

 

[Eric Wilson]

I understand there might be individual differences

Do you think?

When I started working on TGU with a 16kg kettlebell (after spending some weeks working my way up from a 25 lb dumbbell) I had to use both hands on the first step, because I couldn't floor press 35 lbs. Not only that, I found it challenging to maintain the lockout position with the offset weight.

So yes, there are individual differences.

Here's a difference for you: I've got 11" arms (circumference at largest point).

I'll post a video next week, because there is a lot of thought that I must be doing it wrong. And I appreciate the desire to help -- and the conversation has been very helpful, I'm continually refining my ideas of what might be the best training approach.

There are times, though, when I think that the conversation would be simpler if I would just fudge the numbers by 4 or 8 kg -- so my stuggles seemed more normal. It can be hard to explain how you are stuck at a point that was before everyone else's beginning -- but that you don't think it's so bad because it represents so much progress.

 

[John K]

There are times, though, when I think that the conversation would be simpler if I would just fudge the numbers by 4 or 8 kg -- so my stuggles seemed more normal. It can be hard to explain how you are stuck at a point that was before everyone else's beginning -- but that you don't think it's so bad because it represents so much progress.

I've found this thread quite frustrating, but this last bit you've said is 100% true. Be proud of what you've accomplished. Don't even exaggerate what you've done. Most people that have chimed in have been trying to help; if you were stuck at 24kg I don't think their suggestions would be all that different.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

@Eric Wilson
Perhaps 5x8 isn't enough volume for you. Plenty of people require significant volume, especially with pressing. It's such a small muscle group and isn't capable of overloading at the same magnitude of a bench press for example. I wouldn't worry about running RoP as written if the bells you have don't align to it well. You could probably do a set replacement progression similar to S&S. I've been thinking about different ways to use that style of progression for a few months now. One thought I recently had was to use ladders for the sets. Perhaps using your 12kg for five 1-5 or 1-4 ladders and replacing sets with 1-3 ladders with the 16kg each week or even month.

	Ladder 1	Ladder 2	Ladder 3	Ladder 4	Ladder 5
Week/Month 1	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5
Week/Month 2	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	16kg/1-2-3	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5
Week/Month 3	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	16kg/1-2-3	16kg/1-2-3	12kg/1-2-3-4-5	12kg/1-2-3-4-5

...
etc.

Something like that would get you a lot of volume and exposure to the heavier weight with manageable volume. Ultimately, I think ladders will enable you to get the requisite volume you probably need more than technique.

 

[Deleted 4908]

If you keep this mentality then you will always be limited..

Where can I press LIKE? more than once to this advice? Straight forward "Comrade, Observe!" style of answer

If you upload a video of your 12 and 16kg presses, we can give you feedback so you can make more improvement

This is precisely why I like the SF forum ... You will get direct feedback FOR FREE in a FREE FORUM. In these days it is a rare sight on the internet.

Keep up the good work @Mark Limbaga

Well, enough of these kind ramblings

10-4 Out
/Martin Joe

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Where can I press LIKE? more than once to this advice? Straight forward "Comrade, Observe!" style of answer



This is precisely why I like the SF forum ... You will get direct feedback FOR FREE in a FREE FORUM. In these days it is a rare sight on the internet.

Keep up the good work @Mark Limbaga

Well, enough of these kind ramblings

10-4 Out
/Martin Joe

Doing my best to make others stronger

 

[Hung]

he progress is slow (even for above-average responders) and the shoulder muscles aren't very big

Should you train large muscles differently than small muscles?

Many people don't determine training volume individually for each muscle group. Some people come close with the shortcut of pushing vs. pulling exercises, but this categorization breaks down for rotary exercises like pec flys, which are neither a pull nor a fly, and exercises like barbell hack...

mennohenselmans.com

4. The delts are the largest upper body muscle group. The biceps is by far the smallest. In between them most muscles are roughly the same size, including the traps, pecs, triceps and lats.

Still, I agree that Bench press is a better hypertrophy exercise than one arm military press

 

[watchnerd]

Should you train large muscles differently than small muscles?

Many people don't determine training volume individually for each muscle group. Some people come close with the shortcut of pushing vs. pulling exercises, but this categorization breaks down for rotary exercises like pec flys, which are neither a pull nor a fly, and exercises like barbell hack...

mennohenselmans.com

Still, I agree that Bench press is a better hypertrophy exercise than one arm military press

"Aren't very big" applies to both the pecs and shoulders. Everything in the upper body is small.

By cubic volume, one might argue that the delts are slightly bigger than the pecs, and therefore must be capable of being stronger.

This massively ignores how the strength of a muscle is constrained by the joint and tendons. The pectoralis muscles benefit immensely from multiple attachment points to the fairly immovable sternum, as compared to the delts hanging on to a series of floating structures.

An even more ridiculous example, are the traps -- even smaller (by volume) than the delts and pecs!

Yet they're anchored much better, all along the spine, than the delts....

To this point, people can do insanely heavy rack pulls and shrugs (300kg is not a big rack pull, if using straps) with these *tiny* muscles without their arms being pulled off.

And traps can handle an insane amount of volume.

I generally like Henselman's work, but there are some logic flaws in the article.

 

[Hung]

You make a good point watchnerd.

 

[offwidth]

This massively ignores how the strength of a muscle is constrained by the joint and tendons.

Very good point that is often overlooked.
Related is: tendon insertion points; which of course is determined by genetics. Some folks are just going to be naturally stronger (all else being equal) just because of this.

 

[Tjerr]

@Eric Wilson

My two-cents. I have read the first 4 pages, skimmed page 5 and 6 en am now typing this reply.
Somewhere in this giant thread you said you could probably do 5 x (1,2.3.4.5) and still not be ready for the 16 (with RoP)

In Pavel's book Return of The Kettlebell he lays out an format when you finished the RoP but still couldn't start the program with the 8 kg jump.

• After the 5 x 12345 he says to build up the volume of your training to 100 reps per arm. Ladders of 2, 3, 5 (10 reps a ladder).
• So I did (my RoP week 14) 8 x 2,3,5: 80 reps.
• Next heavy week (RoP week 15) do 9 x 2, 3, 5. and then do 10 x 2, 3, 5 (RoP week 16).
• When you get to 100 reps, keep the volume, but increase the sets: 1x 2, 3, 5, 10 and 8x 2, 3, 5 (RoP week 17).
• When you get to 5x 2, 3, 5, 10 (RoP week 22).

You should be able to make the next big jump.

This is way you also stay a long time with just one bell, giving your ligaments and tendons time to adapt.

 

[John K]

@Eric Wilson

My two-cents. I have read the first 4 pages, skimmed page 5 and 6 en am now typing this reply.
Somewhere in this giant thread you said you could probably do 5 x (1,2.3.4.5) and still not be ready for the 16 (with RoP)

In Pavel's book Return of The Kettlebell he lays out an format when you finished the RoP but still couldn't start the program with the 8 kg jump.

• After the 5 x 12345 he says to build up the volume of your training to 100 reps per arm. Ladders of 2, 3, 5 (10 reps a ladder).
• So I did (my RoP week 14) 8 x 2,3,5: 80 reps.
• Next heavy week (RoP week 15) do 9 x 2, 3, 5. and then do 10 x 2, 3, 5 (RoP week 16).
• When you get to 100 reps, keep the volume, but increase the sets: 1x 2, 3, 5, 10 and 8x 2, 3, 5 (RoP week 17).
• When you get to 5x 2, 3, 5, 10 (RoP week 22).

You should be able to make the next big jump.

This is way you also stay a long time with just one bell, giving your ligaments and tendons time to adapt.

I never read ROTK, just ETK. I love that progression you just laid out!!