all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed Dr. Stuart McGill answers if its possible to be both a Yogi and a Powerlifter

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

joemac

Level 3 Valued Member
Hi.

Recently I've spent some time watching YouTube interviews with Dr. Stuart McGill on back pain.

At one point in an interview with Chris Williamson he answered a very interesting question. Chris asked if its theoretically possible for an individual to train to be both an advanced Yogi who has highly stretched out flexible muscles and to also be a master power lifter who can lift very larger weights.

To my surprise, McGill answered that this is a physical impossibility. He explained that to be able to lift a heavy load, or to perform any major physical movement in a sport (pitching in baseball, punching in boxing, jumping in basketball, etc.) the relevant muscles must be very stiff in order to act as springs so the athlete can perform such a powerful physical move at high velocities.

He explained that stretching out these muscles as far as a yogi would as part of his practice must necessarily come at the expense of athletic performance. This came as a major surprise to me because I had just always assumed that more stretching is better and that more stretching always make you stronger, all things held equal.

But McGill also said that most people aren't extreme athletes and don't need this kind of performance. For them who just want to live healthy lives, that they just need some sweet spot in the middle. I figure kettlebells are good for that.

For this who are interested, I used ChatGPT to transcribe the relevant conversation from YouTube audio into text and I copy it here. I strategically inserted commas into the text because this is long form conversation.

Why Do Our Backs Hurt? | Dr Stuart McGill | Modern Wisdom Podcast 081 - YouTube
This section is between times 39:00 and 47:00

Chris: So we've touched one of the things that you come up with a lot is the relationship between stiffness and flexibility in the spine, would it be possible to have a yogi who's also a powerlifter

Stu: No, you asked me could they be a power lift or a yogi, let me say why I said that and very emphatically, have you built a world-champion power lifter

Chris: No

Stu: Do you know one with loose hamstrings

Chris: yeah they don't exist

Stu: So yeah I mean the the strongest power lifter has to have tight hamstrings it's non-negotiable, so there you have it, now a power lifter needs to fight their mobility to get down into a proper deadlift pull, there has to be elastic tension in their body to assist the muscles in the pole if you're gonna win the worlds, so they wear elastic suits to add even more stiffness to allow even more elastic recoil, so I mean but we're going to for the extreme here, is that healthy or is that a great athlete, or is that what you want, I mean that's debatable but let's go to the other end, I've had Yogi's who are on the TV teaching yoga yoga as patients, I can't really think of too many who are strong, in fact they can do wonderful squats, their bottom can go right down and touch the ground but they have difficulty doing the bodyweight squat to stand back up again

Chris: Is that so?

Stu: Oh yeah, now somewhere people want to be in the middle, you know Yogi's aren't out there on the rugby field, nor is the power lifter, so that rugby player somewhere in the middle, or the crossfitter has to be somewhere in the middle, and that's the expertise of first of all the dumb luck of choosing your parents, and then being as clever as you possibly can in creating the right adaptation, I mean I'll ask you some other questions, the NBA championships are on right now, you see a lot of people dunking basketballs, do you think they have loose hamstrings?

Chris: No

Stu: I'm one I'm one of the few who've measured them, no they're tight, they bounce off like Springs, so you know you you went to this dark place of saying oh well they're stretching programs to create more mobility, be careful now, go through the great athletes you've measured and tell me who has unlimited mobility, they don't, they're elastic athletes, they're wound up Springs, so you know you can go through the spectrum from the throwers to the golfers to the tennis players through to the Olympic weightlifters, I'm talking about elastic athletes here, what a mistake it is to stretch away that elastic athleticism

Chris: It's that the way it works, are the two counter to each other, you've got stretching and then you've got progressive overload, and you've got loading, and those two are they about as antagonistic as you can get?

Stu: Yeah you're talking extremes, um maybe in some people, but again my world is elite athletes, I have to tune the Machine, I'm tuning elasticity, I'm tuning fascial trains, I'm tuning muscle pulses, I would be very judicious in whether or not we would stretch them away with the static stretch, so we might do a static stretch say for a rower, who now has a lot of posterior annular disc stress, they've just done a rowing session in a boat or on owner ERG, and I would say good lay on your tummy and just breathe now, there that is a static stretch for a rower, now I might do a thoracic extension stretch to give them more elasticity so they're sliding up the slide on the seat on the boat they go into compression and the catch and then the hips and knees start to extend and then their spine as they sit tall gets a little bit of a whip as their hips explode and really whomp you can hear that elastic storage and recovery in the fastest boats, so you know look at the people who throw a baseball 110 miles an hour, are they heavily mobile, well they are asymmetrically mobile on one side, but they have a hell of an elastic, you know the first elastic across their hips, the second one across the front of their chest, and the third one in their in their wrists, you put those three elastics together and you can throw on it 110 miles an hour, if you don't and then all you have is mobility, you won't throw a ball very fall, do you know Yogi's who can throw a ball 110 miles an hour, do you know a power lifter who can throw 110 miles an hour, have you measured the great golfers

Chris: How strong are they I'm not sure have you tried?

Stu: Well I've measured them, how much effort, have you ever tried to hit a golf ball a long way?

Chris: Yes

StuL Okay you noticed it didn't go very far

Chris: No

Stu: It foes further when you don't try, so when you have a muscle pulse of about 40 to 50 to 60%, that is the sweet spot for speed, because when a muscle contracts it creates force it also creates stiffness, if I maximally contract my bicep I can't punch you, I've got to really boom I got to let it go, when I measure the guys who hit the hardest in the MMA like the UFC for example, do you think it's the guys with a great big muscle, no they pushed their punches, it's the guy who can snap BAM that hits the hardest, so it's a neural priming of a spring that is then released, now we've got a lot to talk about in terms of optimal athleticism so let's be a little bit careful now when we talk about static stretching to enhance injury resilience and athletic performance because in the great athletes and I'm not talking about duffers here, I'm talking world-class people, be very careful with stretching
Click to expand...
 
Boris Bachmann said:
It is possible to be a yogi and a powerlifter simultaneously.... They just probably wouldn't be very good at either. I don't know why this is any kind of revelation.
Click to expand...
This is a good point. I think he meant that you could not be a master of both simultaneously.
 
I'm going to go a step further and say it also depends a lot on the style of yoga.

There are active, flowing yoga styles that are closer to calisthenics than long, passive stretches in other styles.

10 rounds of sun salutation makes me feel sweaty more than bendy.
 
watchnerd said:
I'm going to go a step further and say it also depends a lot on the style of yoga.

There are active, flowing yoga styles that are closer to calisthenics than long, passive stretches in other styles.

10 rounds of sun salutation makes me feel sweaty more than bendy.
Click to expand...
Agreed, when people say yoga is "just a bit of stretching" I ask them to try Ashtanga yoga for a few months and get back to me.
10 rounds of sun salutations, that's a good start. I did the 108 rounds a few years back for summer solstice, it was an interesting experience.
 
watchnerd said:
I'm going to go a step further and say it also depends a lot on the style of yoga.

There are active, flowing yoga styles that are closer to calisthenics than long, passive stretches in other styles.

10 rounds of sun salutation makes me feel sweaty more than bendy.
Click to expand...
Read somewhere a while back that the Israeli SF uses the sun salutation series as a smoker. Something like 4-5+ hours.

Might have been in one of Hofmekler's books .
 
Last edited:
Essexman said:
Agreed, when people say yoga is "just a bit of stretching" I ask them to try Ashtanga yoga for a few months and get back to me.
10 rounds of sun salutations, that's a good start. I did the 108 rounds a few years back for summer solstice, it was an interesting experience.
Click to expand...

It's common to think yoga is just a lot of stretching from people who haven't actually done much, if any, yoga.
 
I think the difference between flexibility and mobility needs to come into this. Proper mobility training builds real strength in those extended end ranges of motion. For example being able to do loaded Cossack squats down to the floor as opposed to being able to get into the splits.

I’m no expert in yoga, so unsure of yoga does this though it know can build strength for sure. But a power lifter has no need for this extra range or strength, indeed limiting their range of motion in competetive lifts is in their interests!

For the average person improving mobility, with increased strength and stability at end range, seems beneficial to avoid injury and move better. However there are systems setup specifically for this eg FRC, kneesovertoes guys ATG stuff and similar.
Not bashing yoga but I think it’s in a different category.

What I think I’m saying is they asked the wrong question! Haha!
 
Symanoy said:
I’m no expert in yoga
Click to expand...
watchnerd said:
It's common to think yoga is just a lot of stretching from people who haven't actually done much, if any, yoga
Click to expand...
Me neither. But I was in the impression yoga is eventually more concerned with the mind than the body. So maybe the question is about extreme flexibility versus heavy weights rather than advanced yogis versus heavy weights?
 
mikko said:
Me neither. But I was in the impression yoga is eventually more concerned with the mind than the body. So maybe the question is about extreme flexibility versus heavy weights rather than advanced yogis versus heavy weights?
Click to expand...

There are vast differences in intent between modern yoga styles.

Classical yoga styles certainly focused on spiritual goals and the poses as a means to that end.

But there are a lot of modern yoga styles that are much more focused on body results for their own sake.
 
Halfakneecap said:
What sort of yoga is helpful to lifting weights? Genuinely curious as I’d definitely like to improve mobility.
Click to expand...
I find yogabody youtube channel’s yoga approach as a good one that suits my needs. Very few selected stretches or poses and long passive holds.

Indeed Pavel was recommending somewhere (maybe in S&S book) to hold stretches for a longer time. Yogabody also prescribes 2 minutes to 5 minutes holds, which is contradicting with latest stretching research (I think ideal is found as 3 sets of 30 seconds) but still I believe works better for me.

But this is good to improve range of motion. For me mobility goes beyond ROM. It includes stability and control as well. Yogabody’s approach is good for ROM only. But for increased RoM I think long hold yoga stretches are very good.
 
Halfakneecap said:
What sort of yoga is helpful to lifting weights? Genuinely curious as I’d definitely like to improve mobility.
Click to expand...

Depends on what kind of lifting you're doing.

There are a bunch of "yoga for weightlifting" (as in the sport of weightlifting) blogs, videos, and even programs out there.

Mostly, they're not focused as much on improving mobility for weightlifting (weightlifting training itself does that), but rather on working the movement patterns that bi-lateral / transverse plane dominant weightlifting neglects.

Unilateral work, twisting moves, core work, back arches, lumbar flexion, t-spine rotation, balancing work, inversions, etc.

Surprisingly, general mobility in ways that are not particularly specific to weightlifting patterns seems to have more carry over to the weightlifting moves than one might think.

Also on doing parasympathetic work instead of sympathetic work.
 
Last edited:
Symanoy said:
I’m no expert in yoga, so unsure of yoga does this though it know can build strength for sure. But a power lifter has no need for this extra range or strength, indeed limiting their range of motion in competetive lifts is in their interests!
Click to expand...

I'm going to disagree with this a little bit.

Granted, I compete in weightlifting which is much more dynamic than powerlifting, but I think some of the same general issues apply:

When you're doing a max attempt in competition, it's easy to have your form degrade.

And to deviate from the drilled groove.

When that happens, your ability to stabilize in *unexpected ranges of motion* can not only make the difference between you making the lift or not, but also the difference between you getting injured or not.

I know this also applies to field sports I played, and I bet it applies to other strength sports like strong man, as well.
 
Last edited:
Ege said:
Indeed Pavel was recommending somewhere (maybe in S&S book) to hold stretches for a longer time. Yogabody also prescribes 2 minutes to 5 minutes holds, which is contradicting with latest stretching research (I think ideal is found as 3 sets of 30 seconds) but still I believe works better for me.
Click to expand...
If you read Relax Into Stretch, you'll find that some kinds of stretches respond better to spending a long time in them while others don't. E.g., I used to work on my splits while watching TV after the kids had gone to sleep - I'd do work during the commercials and then just hang out in whatever split I'd been able to get myself into while the rest of the show as on. I remember one time my kids, then in grade school, came in the front door and I was reading a newspaper while sitting in a side split. But you won't find me stretching my shoulders that way.

One thing that's worthy of mention is that the question is "yoga" which Stu interprets as static stretching - that's not always the way yoga is done, and there are ways to stretch that are compatible with strength training.

-S-
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom