Questions about PTTP

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
In my experience walking was not enough intensity as training to handle the rigours of a judo match but it was enough to give me the kind of recovery and endurance needed to survive through judo training and to develop the heavier kind of cardio intensity needed. S&S certainly approaches the cardio rigours of a judo match, so the HIIRT stuff I think works well for this.

In terms of heavy barbell strength versus kettlebell style strength-endurance, when it comes to judo I honestly think it doesn't make too much of a difference, which is perhaps a plug for kettlebells. Me manipulating a 40kg or 32kg kettlebell made me strong enough to wrestle with guys deadlifting and squatting around 600lbs, and I do remember what it was like wrestling with them before taking up kettlebells (I was just too weak!!!). My guess as to what is going on here is that both they and I have reached a kind of natural maximum of strength regarding the movements that we are pursuing, so we're both "filled out" in terms of our musculature. I can do the kind of movement I train for as strong as reasonably possible for someone my size and weight, and the same is true for them with their deadlifting and squatting strength. I swing and getup strongly and they squat and deadlift strongly. These are simply put different movements even if one is a big pull and the other is a big push. If they took up swings and getups they'd be doing about the same weight as me, and if I trained like them I might be able to get my deadlift and squat up into the 500lbs range too.

I think that no matter what you're doing you should try to get up to a comfortable maximum strength for your size and weight.
 

Pantrolyx

Level 5 Valued Member
Yes, I did a lot of S&S leading up to my MMA fight last November, in particular so when a foot injury prevented me from sparring and running. It worked very well in terms of contributing to my strength and conditioning needs. I think PTTP is an excellent program for building strength for sports, but it is focused around "fresh strength". Resistance work combined with fatigue is imperative when training for combat sports IMHO, but of course, that is what one does when rolling, wrestling, clinching etc in the sports spesific parts of the training.

My opponent was definetely physically stronger than me in the beginning of the fight, but I do believe that good cardio benefitted me a lot and played it's part in the final outcome. Strength in that kind of sport is, optimally, strength that lasts Three rounds. :)

Here is the fight, by the way:

 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Yes, I did a lot of S&S leading up to my MMA fight last November, in particular so when a foot injury prevented me from sparring and running. It worked very well in terms of contributing to my strength and conditioning needs. I think PTTP is an excellent program for building strength for sports, but it is focused around "fresh strength". Resistance work combined with fatigue is imperative when training for combat sports IMHO, but of course, that is what one does when rolling, wrestling, clinching etc in the sports spesific parts of the training.

My opponent was definetely physically stronger than me in the beginning of the fight, but I do believe that good cardio benefitted me a lot and played it's part in the final outcome. Strength in that kind of sport is, optimally, strength that lasts Three rounds. :)

Here is the fight, by the way:

I have exactly the same thoughts comparing PTTP and S&S. In terms of the pull and muscular development generally, PTTP wins hands down, but as for the pushing movement and endurance, S&S wins, let alone in regards to balance, "squirming strength" etc. I don't think the deadlift is something to neglect, however, for anyone who has 150$ to buy a barbell set. The deadlift develops far far far more pulling power and muscle than the swing. The swing has come to represent to me a high cardio, moderate strength move, so basically a form of HIIRT. I suppose you could say I do it more for the cardio than for the muscle. As for the TGU in S&S, I don't see it as a mere 20% of the program. It is also cardio intensive, builds endurance, but to boot it is a huge strengthener of the body in many directions. I suppose it's a kind of "chaotic" military press. At the end of the day though after these three or more years following SF methods, I can see that Pavel struck gold already very early with PTTP. His theory that the deadlift is pretty much all you need is evidently true; just a bit of balancing it with some pressing and you've gotten every muscle in your body tensed and growing, at maximum weight too! The S&S program is maximum weight for the TGU, so this is 100% perfect regarding maximal load, it actually suprasses your pressing strength, so it's even better than presses I think, but the swing is very much a submaximal load, and so it isn't optimal as a "pull" move if we're talking growing the strongest muscles. Through experimentation over these very few years, I've come to value both programs, or should I say all four movements.
 

Chrisdavisjr

Level 6 Valued Member
for anyone who has 150$ to buy a barbell set
Can you actually get a barbell set for $150.00 any more? Mine cost me £430.00 ($555.00, approximately) including shipping but that was a used York bar and 100kg of bumper plates (still had to buy decent collars and some 1.25kg and 2.5kg plates). The cheapest sets I was looking at were around £300-£400 ($387-$515) but those had either iron plates or rubber-coated iron plates and would do a number of most people's floors.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
The deadlift develops far far far more pulling power and muscle than the swing.
Deadlift Strength Movement

The Deadlift is a Limit Strength Movement, when training with heavy load.

Power Output

Research (Dr John Garhammer) determined the following...

1) Heavy Deadlift and Squat Power Output is around 12 watts per kilo of body weight.

2) Olympic Lifts registered 52.6 watts per kilo of body weight.

'...Even when dropping the training poundage down to lower percentages for Olympic pulls and deadlifts, outputs for Olympic pulls were still almost twice as great." A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test”, elite Olympic lifters’ and powerlifters’ power outputs.

Kettlebell Swing Power Output

Research (Dr Bret Contreras) has demonstrated that "Heavy Kettlebell Swings" produce Power Output that rivals Olympic Lift Movements.

Thus, Swings are vastly superior to Deadlifts, no matter the 1 Max Repetition Training Percentage that is employed.

The Kettlebell Swing is a Power Movement.

The Deadlift is Not a Power Movement.

The Foundation Of Power

The foundation of Power is built by increasing Limit Strength; which the Deadlift does. Thus, increasing Deadlift Strength allows for greater Power Output.

Lifting Heavy Weight Make You Slow

The old coaches from decades ago weren't complete wrong.

If your Strength Training Program revolves around only slow heavy lifts, your Power and Speed will drop. You are going to move slower. McBride, A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Powerlifters, Olympic Lifter and Sprinters.

Research has demonstrated that when only Limit Strength Training is employed in a program, "Super" Fast Type IIa/x Muscle Fiber are converted over to "Slower" Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

This results is your Limits Strength goes up while your Power and Speed go down.

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifter are the Poster Children for Conjugate Training; employing Power Training (Olympic Lifts) and Limit Strength Training; heavy Squats, Presses, etc.

Research has demonstrated a Training Program that employs Limit Strength, Power and Hypertrophy elicits a great training response, better results.

Summary

1) Kettlebell Swings are a Power Movement; rivaling the Power Output of Olympic Lifters.

2) Deadlifts are a Limit Strength Movement. Performing them with a moderate to light load will increase Power but minimally in comparison to Kettlebell Swings and Olympic Movements.

3) Chose the right tool for the job; Kettlebell Swings for Power. Deadlifts for Limit Strength.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Bret S.

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Yes, I did a lot of S&S leading up to my MMA fight last November, in particular so when a foot injury prevented me from sparring and running. It worked very well in terms of contributing to my strength and conditioning needs. I think PTTP is an excellent program for building strength for sports, but it is focused around "fresh strength". Resistance work combined with fatigue is imperative when training for combat sports IMHO, but of course, that is what one does when rolling, wrestling, clinching etc in the sports spesific parts of the training.

My opponent was definetely physically stronger than me in the beginning of the fight, but I do believe that good cardio benefitted me a lot and played it's part in the final outcome. Strength in that kind of sport is, optimally, strength that lasts Three rounds. :)

Here is the fight, by the way:

Nicely done @Pantrolyx! I like the way you resist mouth breathing, very well done, and great relaxation/energy conservation.
Superior technique, relaxation and aerobic fitness for the win!
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Deadlift Strength Movement

The Deadlift is a Limit Strength Movement, when training with heavy load.

Power Output

Research (Dr John Garhammer) determined the following...

1) Heavy Deadlift and Squat Power Output is around 12 watts per kilo of body weight.

2) Olympic Lifts registered 52.6 watts per kilo of body weight.

'...Even when dropping the training poundage down to lower percentages for Olympic pulls and deadlifts, outputs for Olympic pulls were still almost twice as great." A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test”, elite Olympic lifters’ and powerlifters’ power outputs.

Kettlebell Swing Power Output

Research (Dr Bret Contreras) has demonstrated that "Heavy Kettlebell Swings" produce Power Output that rivals Olympic Lift Movements.

Thus, Swings are vastly superior to Deadlifts, no matter the 1 Max Repetition Training Percentage that is employed.

The Kettlebell Swing is a Power Movement.

The Deadlift is Not a Power Movement.

The Foundation Of Power

The foundation of Power is built by increasing Limit Strength; which the Deadlift does. Thus, increasing Deadlift Strength allows for greater Power Output.

Lifting Heavy Weight Make You Slow

The old coaches from decades ago weren't complete wrong.

If your Strength Training Program revolves around only slow heavy lifts, your Power and Speed will drop. You are going to move slower. McBride, A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Powerlifters, Olympic Lifter and Sprinters.

Research has demonstrated that when only Limit Strength Training is employed in a program, "Super" Fast Type IIa/x Muscle Fiber are converted over to "Slower" Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

This results is your Limits Strength goes up while your Power and Speed go down.

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifter are the Poster Children for Conjugate Training; employing Power Training (Olympic Lifts) and Limit Strength Training; heavy Squats, Presses, etc.

Research has demonstrated a Training Program that employs Limit Strength, Power and Hypertrophy elicits a great training response, better results.

Summary

1) Kettlebell Swings are a Power Movement; rivaling the Power Output of Olympic Lifters.

2) Deadlifts are a Limit Strength Movement. Performing them with a moderate to light load will increase Power but minimally in comparison to Kettlebell Swings and Olympic Movements.

3) Chose the right tool for the job; Kettlebell Swings for Power. Deadlifts for Limit Strength.

Kenny Croxdale
Okay, so I have been doing the right thing but with the wrong theory in mind. The fact that I have been pursuing both S&S and deadlifts (and presses) for the past several years may explain why my practical strength is ridiculously high for judo. My coach who has been an Olympic and national coach more than once says so.

Okay, so both swings and deadlifts are needed. I will continue with both and be sure not to downplay the importance of the swings in my weekly regimen! Perhaps I ought to give some of those Olympic Lifts a try, since they seem to be the gold standard for testing the value of exercises.

I greatly value your input! Thank you so much!
 

Pantrolyx

Level 5 Valued Member
Nicely done @Pantrolyx! I like the way you resist mouth breathing, very well done, and great relaxation/energy conservation.
Superior technique, relaxation and aerobic fitness for the win!
Thank you, man! :)
Yes, making light nose breathing a habit has been a game changer. I am by no means very skilled in the Buteyko techniques, but attending a couple of seminars (Wim Hof Method/The Oxygen Advantage) and reading a few books on the topic has contributed well to less fatigue whilst grinding, boxing, swinging, running et cetera. Breathing technique is still so undervalued in the world of fitness and sports.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
I have been doing the right thing but with the wrong theory in mind. The fact that I have been pursuing both S&S and deadlifts (and presses) for the past several years may explain why my practical strength is ridiculously high for judo.
Conjugate Training

Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that one type of Strength Training enhance another.

Dr Michel Zoudos' Strength Training Research

Zourdos' research demonstrated that Limit Strength is increased when Hypertrophy and Power Training are incorporated into the same Training Program.

Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Research

Schoenfeld's research found that increasing muscle mass is optimized with...

1) Mechanical Tension: Limit Strength Training

2) Metabolic Stress: Bodybuilding Training; high sets, moderate to high repetition and low to moderate percentages of 1 Repetition Max, and short rest periods between sets.

3) Muscle Damage: A progressive program with the final week of the training cycle going close to failure or to failure in a movement, full range weight loaded movements that stretch the muscles.

Olympic Lifter

Combining Power and Limit Strength Training.

Westside Powerlifting Method

The foundation of this program was taken from Olympic Lifter's training protocol; Limit Strength, Power and Hypertrophy are incorporated in the Training Cycle.

The Common Denominator

All of the program above essentially share the same protocol; Conjugate Training.

Perhaps I ought to give some of those Olympic Lifts a try, since they seem to be the gold standard for testing the value of exercises.
The Gold Standard of Power

The Olympic Lifts appear to be The Gold Standard of Power. That is one of he reasons, some type of Olympic Lift Movement is a staple for the majority of sports.

Shot Putter appear to be the only group that has registered essentially the same Power Output as Olympic Lifters.

However, the Olympic Lifts are a technical movements; difficult to teach and learn for most. Some other method that elicit a similar effect, that are less technical and require less time to learn are...

1) Kettlebell Swing

The main issue in employing the Kettlebell Swing as a Power Movement is the Training Load.

The majority of individual employ a Kettlebell that is too light to fully maximize Power Output. Contreras' Kettlebell Swing research demonstrated the "Heavy Kettlebell Swings" are necessary for the development of Power.

"Heavy" defined as using a Kettlebell that is approximately half your body weight or is higher. Thus, if you weight 200 lbs, using a Kettlebell that 100 lb plus.

I'ved worked up to performing "Kettlebell Hungarian Core Blaster Swings" with 170 lbs. A Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster works. It's cheap and allows you to load it as light or heavy as you like.

Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs.


2) The Clean High Pull | T Nation

Alan Hedrick is one of the best Strength Coaches in the business.

As per Hedrick, The Clean High Pull develops Power. It requires less technique and fairly easy to learn.

3) Trap Bar Jump Squats

Research shows the Trap Bar Jump Squat produces Power Output that parallels Olympic Pulls; which makes sense. Trap Bar Jump Squat are essentially a Clean High Pull.

The Trap bar Jump Squat requiring a small learning curve. If you don't have a Trap Bar, dumbbells will evoke the same response.

Speed Or Power Training

Speed is developed with a fairly light load. Power is developed with moderately have loads. Source: Special Strength Training, Yuri Verkhoshansky; a brilliant piece of work.

That means individual who perform Kettlebell Swing with a fairly light Kettlebell are Speed Training more so that Power Training.

The two main reasons most lifter perform light Kettlebell Swings is...

1) Lack of Knowledge

2) Kettlebell Cost

The remedy to this is a Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster; $20 to make it, plus the cost of some used weight plates and you are in business.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Bret S.

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Thank you, man! :)
Yes, making light nose breathing a habit has been a game changer. I am by no means very skilled in the Buteyko techniques, but attending a couple of seminars (Wim Hof Method/The Oxygen Advantage) and reading a few books on the topic has contributed well to less fatigue whilst grinding, boxing, swinging, running et cetera. Breathing technique is still so undervalued in the world of fitness and sports.
That's great! I've not started formal Buteyko but have been nose breathing exclusively while consciously using less air. Haven't had to mouth breath since doing Viking Warrior Conditioning, everything I do now is within the template and guidelines of A+A and aerobic base building.

Check out Al Ciampa's new online gym, he's doing great things for me and many others..

If you PM Al he'll respond and give you access to browse the whole thing.
Be Well and Strong – A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Conjugate Training

Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that one type of Strength Training enhance another.

Dr Michel Zoudos' Strength Training Research

Zourdos' research demonstrated that Limit Strength is increased when Hypertrophy and Power Training are incorporated into the same Training Program.

Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Research

Schoenfeld's research found that increasing muscle mass is optimized with...

1) Mechanical Tension: Limit Strength Training

2) Metabolic Stress: Bodybuilding Training; high sets, moderate to high repetition and low to moderate percentages of 1 Repetition Max, and short rest periods between sets.

3) Muscle Damage: A progressive program with the final week of the training cycle going close to failure or to failure in a movement, full range weight loaded movements that stretch the muscles.

Olympic Lifter

Combining Power and Limit Strength Training.

Westside Powerlifting Method

The foundation of this program was taken from Olympic Lifter's training protocol; Limit Strength, Power and Hypertrophy are incorporated in the Training Cycle.

The Common Denominator

All of the program above essentially share the same protocol; Conjugate Training.



The Gold Standard of Power

The Olympic Lifts appear to be The Gold Standard of Power. That is one of he reasons, some type of Olympic Lift Movement is a staple for the majority of sports.

Shot Putter appear to be the only group that has registered essentially the same Power Output as Olympic Lifters.

However, the Olympic Lifts are a technical movements; difficult to teach and learn for most. Some other method that elicit a similar effect, that are less technical and require less time to learn are...

1) Kettlebell Swing

The main issue in employing the Kettlebell Swing as a Power Movement is the Training Load.

The majority of individual employ a Kettlebell that is too light to fully maximize Power Output. Contreras' Kettlebell Swing research demonstrated the "Heavy Kettlebell Swings" are necessary for the development of Power.

"Heavy" defined as using a Kettlebell that is approximately half your body weight or is higher. Thus, if you weight 200 lbs, using a Kettlebell that 100 lb plus.

I'ved worked up to performing "Kettlebell Hungarian Core Blaster Swings" with 170 lbs. A Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster works. It's cheap and allows you to load it as light or heavy as you like.

Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs.


2) The Clean High Pull | T Nation

Alan Hedrick is one of the best Strength Coaches in the business.

As per Hedrick, The Clean High Pull develops Power. It requires less technique and fairly easy to learn.

3) Trap Bar Jump Squats

Research shows the Trap Bar Jump Squat produces Power Output that parallels Olympic Pulls; which makes sense. Trap Bar Jump Squat are essentially a Clean High Pull.

The Trap bar Jump Squat requiring a small learning curve. If you don't have a Trap Bar, dumbbells will evoke the same response.

Speed Or Power Training

Speed is developed with a fairly light load. Power is developed with moderately have loads. Source: Special Strength Training, Yuri Verkhoshansky; a brilliant piece of work.

That means individual who perform Kettlebell Swing with a fairly light Kettlebell are Speed Training more so that Power Training.

The two main reasons most lifter perform light Kettlebell Swings is...

1) Lack of Knowledge

2) Kettlebell Cost

The remedy to this is a Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster; $20 to make it, plus the cost of some used weight plates and you are in business.

Kenny Croxdale
I've got a 48kg kettlebell that I use for S&S TGUs. This is half my bodyweight.

So, what I gather from this is that I'd be making more power progress 2 hand swinging a heavy kettlebell than 1 hand swinging a lighter kettlebell? My typical S&S 1 handed swing weight is 32kg.
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kozushi : That seems to be related more to the research of Bret Contreras. Pavel's tests with Stu McGill show a little different pattern if I am not mistaken. That might be due to hardstyle technique and the shadow swings technique. There is a passage in S+S about it.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
That seems to be related more to the research of Bret Contreras. Pavel's tests with Stu McGill show a little different pattern if I am not mistaken.
Do you have the information on McGill's test? I am interested in seeing it.

Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs.

Al's Kettlebell Swing with 92 kgs is a great demonstration of Power.

Kenny Croxdale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
So, what I gather from this is that I'd be making more power progress 2 hand swinging a heavy kettlebell than 1 hand swinging a lighter kettlebell?
Yes, you going to display greater Power Output with a heavier 2 hand swing vs a 1 hand swing with a lighter Kettlebell.

Think of it this way. Are you going to develop more Strength pulling a Deadlift with 1 or two hands?

Kenny Croxdale
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Yes, you going to display greater Power Output with a heavier 2 hand swing vs a 1 hand swing with a lighter Kettlebell.

Think of it this way. Are you going to develop more Strength pulling a Deadlift with 1 or two hands?

Kenny Croxdale
But why is this the case though?
 

Bret S.

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I've got a 48kg kettlebell that I use for S&S TGUs. This is half my bodyweight.

So, what I gather from this is that I'd be making more power progress 2 hand swinging a heavy kettlebell than 1 hand swinging a lighter kettlebell? My typical S&S 1 handed swing weight is 32kg.
I would do both or just heavy 2hsw with heavy snatching, works well for me.
 

Philippe Geoffrion

Level 6 Valued Member
But why is this the case though?
According to @kennycro@@aol.com, power development requires a heavier load then speed development. With a 1 hand swing, the load is lower yes? I would think it would make the grip and stabilizers more of a limiting factor than total body power but maybe I'm missing something. Power =work/time and work, in our case is mass/distance. I'm no expert, but most kettlebell swings seem to be around the same speed, regardless of mass. If one were to swing hard with a light weight, power would be decreased as you'd have to decelerate the k.b. or it'll fly off into uncharted territory. If one wanted to do increase distance, a snatch would accomplish this, although the mass would have to be smaller.
 
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