Kettlebell ROP support group
- Thread starter gibbertron
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Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm in week three/four of ROP, and discouraged, would like advice.
I'm a 48yo male, ~137 lbs, fairly weak/unathletic, with ~1.5 years of training experience.
It took me some time to get to where I could press the 16kg bell even once*, but I got to 5 reps of C&P with 16kg earlier this year, and started on ROP last month.
My last heavy day was five ladders of three, and it took about 45 minutes. I understand that sessions get long with ROP, but I didn't expect things to take so long this early.
Does this mean that I started ROP too early? -- Maybe I should have had five better reps before starting?
Maybe I just need more recovery time than others? (I'm going at the pace that allows me to not miss reps -- which means a few minutes rest before and after the sets of three)
Should I just repeat the current week a few times, with hopes that I'll be able to reduce my time a little? I'm not chasing the clock, but if I were able to do one-two-three rungs without ~30 seconds rest between rungs, that would make a huge difference in session time. As it is, I can probaly do that for the first ladder, but the sets of three are too difficult after that.
I'm doing ladders of single arm rows in place of pull-ups. 16kg isn't much to row, so that isn't adding much time or recovery.
Appreciate any advice.
* I know that is hard for some to believe, but for context, I couldn't press 12kg in 8/2019. So while I'm far from strong, I've also made substantial progress.
I'm a 48yo male, ~137 lbs, fairly weak/unathletic, with ~1.5 years of training experience.
It took me some time to get to where I could press the 16kg bell even once*, but I got to 5 reps of C&P with 16kg earlier this year, and started on ROP last month.
My last heavy day was five ladders of three, and it took about 45 minutes. I understand that sessions get long with ROP, but I didn't expect things to take so long this early.
Does this mean that I started ROP too early? -- Maybe I should have had five better reps before starting?
Maybe I just need more recovery time than others? (I'm going at the pace that allows me to not miss reps -- which means a few minutes rest before and after the sets of three)
Should I just repeat the current week a few times, with hopes that I'll be able to reduce my time a little? I'm not chasing the clock, but if I were able to do one-two-three rungs without ~30 seconds rest between rungs, that would make a huge difference in session time. As it is, I can probaly do that for the first ladder, but the sets of three are too difficult after that.
I'm doing ladders of single arm rows in place of pull-ups. 16kg isn't much to row, so that isn't adding much time or recovery.
Appreciate any advice.
* I know that is hard for some to believe, but for context, I couldn't press 12kg in 8/2019. So while I'm far from strong, I've also made substantial progress.
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SamB
Level 4 Valued Member
I think you're spot on. Repeat your heavy week once or twice. Possibly try to gently compress the rest intervals but it sounds like they're about right for you.
If all you did was 1,2,3 ladders forever it wouldn't do you any harm! I'd still expect you to crack through it pretty soon though. If you feel really stuck maybe try some of the techniques from the ETK special reports on variety days as suggested (heavier cleans, long push press, bottoms up press etc).
Don't stress, ROP can be a long road.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Eric, take your time with the ROP, it will become easier as you get stronger. My only advice is take your time.
IMayAgainKnowChris
Level 5 Valued Member
First off man. You’re strong. 35lbs is a little less than 1/4 your body weight. I’m 182 and I’m pressing the 24. So it’s all relative ya know? I’m not good at math but I think I’m close.
Second. Sticking to this for 1.5 years is better than most people you meet on the street are doing.
That being said... I don’t have much advice other than if you felt like tweaking the program a little you could do a push-press and that’ll get you stronger for the strict pressing (in my experience). Just did my heavy week of 3x(1,2,3,4,5) 2x(1,2,3,4) with pull-ups and it took about an hour. Maybe a little more with swings. It’s not a quick program. Haha.
Since I started ROP with a sort of push press I’m gonna start it over again w the 24 again and do it strict since I have the strength now. I feel a big difference with push vs strict and am excited to do it “right” this time around.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
As @IMayAgainKnowChris said, there is no reason to get discouraged when you're making such good progress. You just need to pause and consider some waviness to shake things up before pushing forward again. I wouldn't be surprised if the 16K is closer to a 10RM now than you think.
I would take a week off then restart ROP at 3 ladders of 3 rungs, paying more attention to form over reps. For example, if you don't feel your lats firing, then check the cues from the master himself in the attached video below.
It's also OK to repeat certain weeks to accumulate volume without going to higher rungs. Just keep track of the cumulative volume and make sure to take a week off to reset it once it exceeds 1200 reps or so (counting all reps in H,M,L days). The last few weeks of ROP are brutal and you don't wanna approach them with overstressed shoulders.
I would take a week off then restart ROP at 3 ladders of 3 rungs, paying more attention to form over reps. For example, if you don't feel your lats firing, then check the cues from the master himself in the attached video below.
It's also OK to repeat certain weeks to accumulate volume without going to higher rungs. Just keep track of the cumulative volume and make sure to take a week off to reset it once it exceeds 1200 reps or so (counting all reps in H,M,L days). The last few weeks of ROP are brutal and you don't wanna approach them with overstressed shoulders.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
1) Skip the rows. They are not part of the program. No substitutions are allowed. This is very clear in the book.
2) Use a lighter bell. The program recommends: "A kettlebell KB you can clean and press - a clean before each press, that is - roughly 5 to 8 times." It sounds like the 5 reps with the 16 was more of a PR 5RM then a 5-8 reps. Did you clean the 16 before each press? Have you run the program with your 12?
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
Not sure why the recommendation is not to row instead of pull up? It’s not “pure” or the exact same movement, but why not integrate a different pull in place of a pull up if the pull up is not yet achievable (indeed a regression of a pull up is a body weight row, in current climate the set up for this may not be available so an alternative rowing motion seems logical?)
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
To answer your question, I have not run the program with the 12kg. I've resisted that idea because I can press the 12kg so easily.
I was cleaning before every press when I hit 5 C&P reps each side. I double pressed for 6 reps (no cleans) a few weeks prior to that. But I get your point. I wasn't really at the point where I could get 5 good C&P reps any day of the week, which is why a ladder of three is so challenging.
I'm not sure which I'll do. I might take your suggestion and just run the program with 12kg. Or I might repeat the first four weeks once or twice and see what that yields. I'll have to make a choice by Monday.
I can usually hit 8 pull-ups, but the last time I did them in the volume that ROP requires I had elbow issues that took a while to clear up. So I'm just not very interested in pull-ups at this time. Figured some light rows wouldn't hurt anything.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
For me, if the guy writing the plan says don't substitute over and over in the plan. You don't substitute. Simple. No logic required.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
And btw there is nothing actually wrong with 45 minutes for 5(1,2,3) there is no specified rest period in the plan. Short rest periods promote building muscle, long breaks will build your skill, but based on many cycles of learning with this plan (with students and myself) using a bell that is too heavy is miserable and produces inferior results for your much higher effort with a very high risk of injury. What's the rush? Set a very solid foundation with a lighter bell.
How many high quality clean and presses with the 12kg on each side? With a 14kg? Taking 16kg as your 5RM roughly puts your 8RM at 14 kg. For me, that's a lot closer to the sweet spot.
Remember that pull-ups are optional in RoP. If you decide to do them there is specific guidance that allows you to customize to your current level of strength by keeping the same number of ladders as the presses, but to decrease the number of rungs when executing pull-ups. The specific example in the book is if you are doing 5(1,2,3,4) for presses it's ok to do 5(1,2) for the pull-ups.
I completely understand the pull-up elbow issue. I've been there myself. Consider that it may not be the volume of the pull-ups, but rather the way you are executing them that is causing the problem - it was for me. My coach fixed my neck / head position, built up my neck extensor and flexor strength, reinforced my hollow position and got me to focus on pulling more with the pinky-side of my hand and I'm now able to handle much higher volume.
Are you doing the snatches and swings portion of the plan??
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
I agree, 14kg is the sweet spot for me, I wouldn't mind having one of those.
There are limits to my pull-up situation. My bar in the house doesn't allow my legs to be straight, so I can't quite acheive the hollow position. (My outdoor bar -- it was 3 degrees Fahrenheit this morning)
I'm doing the snatches and swings. I'm alternating between two-handed 24kg swings and 20kg 1-handed swings. Today I did 120 1-handed 20kg swings in six minutes. As soon as I sell some unused equipment, I'll buy a 28kg bell.
I do snatches with 16kg. In January I did 70 in five minutes. Last snatch day I did four sets of 15, and didn't time it, focused on form. I feel like passing a 16kg snatch test is just a matter of a little more strength (both arm and hinge), a little better technique, a little more conditioning, and a little more grit. I'll probably test again next week, I expect at least 80.
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14kg looks to be in stock! You won't regret it. I got a 10kg of this type and it's worth every penny. Dreamy kettlebell.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
Solid!
If you don't have a 14 i'd use the 12. It's hard to adjust to, but we need to err on the side of doing less not doing more.
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
I understand your point but I’m of another mind. Perhaps I agree to unquestioning adherence for an individual plan, but for a generalised program that offers adding a pull movement to it (the pull up), to then rule out a pull regression because it’s not a pull up for no given reason other than “because the writer says so” is unscientific. There is a time for blind obedience but I would encourage any student of physical training to learn and ask Why. Perhaps there’s a good reason (the volume? The pull strength gained from cleaning and swings/snatches? Both a reasonable assertions), but it should be thought of and individually appreciated.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
+1....it becomes another program if you substitute.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
First, let me say I appreciate the discussion. Thanks for engaging.
Second, of course asking "why" is important, but we also have to accept that many of these plans are developed empirically (by means of observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic) and the mechanisms of "how" and "why" they work are not known or truly understood. Can theory or logic be used to adjust an empirically developed plan? For me, the answer is a "no". Especially when the acknowledged expert who collected and compiled this information says you shouldn't. I'm not thinking of it as blind obedience as much as extending respect to @Pavel who I'm certain based his repeated "no substitutions" assertions on careful analysis of the available information.