all posts post new thread

Kettlebell S&S Kettlebell Progression + Proper Swing and TGU Mechanics?

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
Hey guys, I've been doing S&S to the letter since March and reading Easy Strength..

My previous forum post is here, for those who would like to see: S&S: Soccer GPP Adaptation??

I believe that, even though I haven't done the swing and tgu test yet, I am capable of moving up weights as I went to a hotel gym and tried 16kg, did the goblets and two arm/one arm swings with almost the same/slightly heavier effort perception than my previous 13kg bell at home.

The question is... Should I go directly to a 24kg kettlebell?
I feel like I can grow into it if I started with kb deadlifts or goblet squats... I'm still 55-57kg in weight but the 13kg feels easy or non-taxing.

My Turkish Get Up though, I was able to do 10kg for one rep per arm, then go back to the 8kg I was more comfortable with when I was doing S&S in the hotel gym.


What do you guys recommend?
Should I go buy the 24kg(and reap the financial benefit of not buying two bells one after the other) and practice progression with it until I can use it in my swings, or buy a 16-20kg one first?

Also, would anyone be interested in checking my swing and tgu mechanics? I'm not really sure about my upswing body position.

Also, can you guys provide me a video link to how pavel does his swings now?

Thank you all.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
What do you guys recommend?
Should I go buy the 24kg(and reap the financial benefit of not buying two bells one after the other) and practice progression with it until I can use it in my swings, or buy a 16-20kg one first?

I think you should get the 24kg and progress with it by building up to the S&S volume as described in the book.

Also, would anyone be interested in checking my swing and tgu mechanics? I'm not really sure about my upswing body position.

Absolutely! Upload a video to YouTube or somewhere and post the link here.

Also, can you guys provide me a video link to how pavel does his swings now?

I don't think you'll find this, but you'll do well to emulate any StrongFirst certified instructor, especially Master and Senior SFGs and Team Leaders who you can find on Instagram and other social media.
 

Pavel Macek

Level 9 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
Hey guys, I've been doing S&S to the letter since March and reading Easy Strength..

My previous forum post is here, for those who would like to see: S&S: Soccer GPP Adaptation??

I believe that, even though I haven't done the swing and tgu test yet, I am capable of moving up weights as I went to a hotel gym and tried 16kg, did the goblets and two arm/one arm swings with almost the same/slightly heavier effort perception than my previous 13kg bell at home.

The question is... Should I go directly to a 24kg kettlebell?
I feel like I can grow into it if I started with kb deadlifts or goblet squats... I'm still 55-57kg in weight but the 13kg feels easy or non-taxing.

My Turkish Get Up though, I was able to do 10kg for one rep per arm, then go back to the 8kg I was more comfortable with when I was doing S&S in the hotel gym.


What do you guys recommend?
Should I go buy the 24kg(and reap the financial benefit of not buying two bells one after the other) and practice progression with it until I can use it in my swings, or buy a 16-20kg one first?

Also, would anyone be interested in checking my swing and tgu mechanics? I'm not really sure about my upswing body position.

Also, can you guys provide me a video link to how pavel does his swings now?

Thank you all.

Get 2 of the classical "big three" weights (16, 24, 32) - 16 and 24.

You will use the 16 in the future for many other drills.
 

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
I think you should get the 24kg and progress with it by building up to the S&S volume as described in the book.

Absolutely! Upload a video to YouTube or somewhere and post the link here.

I don't think you'll find this, but you'll do well to emulate any StrongFirst certified instructor, especially Master and Senior SFGs and Team Leaders who you can find on Instagram and other social media.

That makes sense thank you.

I'm currently unable to sleep properly so I have yet to record my latest swing, but will post this when I am able to.


I have seen instructors teaching the swing but have yet to see one where the instructor just swings the bell as a demo, maybe completing the reps and sets.. Any chance you have seen one of those?

Thank you!
 

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
Get 2 of the classical "big three" weights (16, 24, 32) - 16 and 24.

You will use the 16 in the future for many other drills.

Seeing as I only have the budget for one, I guess I'm going for the 24kg as suggested by miss Anna, but will later get the 16kg for vwc perhaps.

Thank you sir!
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
swings the bell as a demo, maybe completing the reps and sets.. Any chance you have seen one of those?

Here's a couple of mine, A complete24kg S&S session and Sinister session.

Some to look for on Instagram: sokolstrong, liftwithhollyandarryn, coachalexei, girevik777, noahmarek2, jodybeasley, _coach_jake, _coach_karen_, haraldmotz, icebox_kettlebell, strongmobility, the_strong_yogi, zachhenderson_, pavelmacekom, hmg_fitness, sousastrong, strongashec, evolution_strength_performance, kettlebell_qatar
 

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
Hey guys,

It took too long sorry. I got busy, but still doing my S&S for a while, until I got hold of a bodyweight program(Athletic Calisthenics), so I took the S&S Core(Goblet, Swing, TGU), put the GS and Swings into warm up, and the TGU as finisher. So it's like Half S&S + DDL + Full AC + Core (A/B/C/D, done on different days) + OS Cooldown. I don't end up over fatigued at this setup, but maybe the hot showers after the workout helps(I finally have a gym membership. So worth it lol). However, I can't seem to lower the workout time below 1hr and 50mins. To do so would require removing parts of the workout, parts that I am unwilling to remove.

I took S&S to the backseat to give way for me to be able to finish 4 different phases of training in one year. I'm currently using the full S&S as a tonic workout every now and then, when I get bored of the routine.

I use the 16kg for 3x5 Goblets and 3x3 Cossack Squats. I use 20kg for 2H swings and 16kg for 1H swings for a total of 5 sets 2H/1H alternates.
I use 12kg for TGU and feel that I'm already at the point where I need to jump up a weight slowly.
If I get back to focusing on S&S(maybe when IN SEASON, alternated with VWC), I'm confident I can increase 2H KB Swings to 24kg little by little.


With that said, I finally was able to upload a recorded video of me doing swings. It contains 2H & 1H Swings. Please skip around, as I tend to rest long in between sets.

Thank you.

 
Last edited:

Steve W.

Level 8 Valued Member
@Reventio007
A few observations and recommendations:
--Your basic hinge position is good and overall technique is safe and solid.
--Start with the KB closer to you. You should be able to reach it in your normal hinge stance. It should only be far enough away to give you space for a good initial hike, but no farther than necessary.
--Delay your hinge a little longer on the downswing (maintain the vertical plank a little longer). Think about keeping the bell high in the triangle between your groin and your knees.
--Don't snap/slam so hard into the vertical plank at the top. Extend smoothly and tense up just as you hit full extension. Slamming into the lockout makes your whole body shake instead of being stable, and can put extra stress on your knees and low back.
--You have a little extra vertical hop and arm pull as you finish your hip extension, which causes the bell to flip up at the top. Just finish your hip extension smoothly and strongly and let the bell float out horizontally in front of you. The bell should be an extension of your arm and form a straight line outwards.
--Pay attention to balance and rooting. You do a lot of rocking on your feet and lift your heels or toes at various times. Imagine that the soles of your feet extend downward through the floor. Keep your weight evenly balanced over the whole surface of your foot and try to maintain that even balance throughout the swing.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
If you can get some flat-soled shoes or go barefoot, you'll be able to get the balance, rooting, and power production a lot better. Shoes with squishy soles make swings much more difficult.

Great advice above from Steve. Keep practicing - you're doing well!
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
A quick question..

It looks like you're based in southeast Asia.. May we know which country?

Usually the issues you have with KB movements are addressed by consulting with an SFG for hands-on instruction
 

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
@Reventio007
A few observations and recommendations:
--Your basic hinge position is good and overall technique is safe and solid.
--Start with the KB closer to you. You should be able to reach it in your normal hinge stance. It should only be far enough away to give you space for a good initial hike, but no farther than necessary.
--Delay your hinge a little longer on the downswing (maintain the vertical plank a little longer). Think about keeping the bell high in the triangle between your groin and your knees.
--Don't snap/slam so hard into the vertical plank at the top. Extend smoothly and tense up just as you hit full extension. Slamming into the lockout makes your whole body shake instead of being stable, and can put extra stress on your knees and low back.
--You have a little extra vertical hop and arm pull as you finish your hip extension, which causes the bell to flip up at the top. Just finish your hip extension smoothly and strongly and let the bell float out horizontally in front of you. The bell should be an extension of your arm and form a straight line outwards.
--Pay attention to balance and rooting. You do a lot of rocking on your feet and lift your heels or toes at various times. Imagine that the soles of your feet extend downward through the floor. Keep your weight evenly balanced over the whole surface of your foot and try to maintain that even balance throughout the swing.

Hope this helps.


Thank you, you're very helpful. I have a few things, if you don't mind.

"--Delay your hinge a little longer on the downswing (maintain the vertical plank a little longer). Think about keeping the bell high in the triangle between your groin and your knees."

...You're saying that, I should have a visible "Arms Only" downswing for 500-700ms before I hinge, is that correct?
What cues lets me know that the downswing was enough before I hinge?

I thought my hinge timing was enough, and that any delay will make me have painful contact lol.


"--Don't snap/slam so hard into the vertical plank at the top. Extend smoothly and tense up just as you hit full extension. Slamming into the lockout makes your whole body shake instead of being stable, and can put extra stress on your knees and low back."

But, reducing hip drive/snap will make me have more arm involvement/upward pull since there's no momentum from the hips if I aim for smooth upward extension? I think I've read/watched somewhere that the swings should be a hips only, explosive movement...

By saying "Extend smoothly and tense up just as you hit full extension.", I'm visualizing that as "extend upwards with a relaxed body/hips, then contract all muscles before you hit the top", which, again, I don't see a way for me to bring the kettlebell up to vertical plank position with a relaxed hip drive WITHOUT having an arm pull involved. Can you please elaborate?

But yeah, I see how my body shakes at the top, but I wonder how do I balance explosiveness and stability here...


"--You have a little extra vertical hop and arm pull as you finish your hip extension, which causes the bell to flip up at the top. Just finish your hip extension smoothly and strongly and let the bell float out horizontally in front of you. The bell should be an extension of your arm and form a straight line outwards."

I think, the bell flip is caused by me wanting to stop the bell's upward movement by forcing the bell down.

Vertical hop happens because of unstable footing because of shoes, as Anna has pointed out.

"--Pay attention to balance and rooting. You do a lot of rocking on your feet and lift your heels or toes at various times. Imagine that the soles of your feet extend downward through the floor. Keep your weight evenly balanced over the whole surface of your foot and try to maintain that even balance throughout the swing."

I guess I have to really pay attention to this balance thing.

Thank you.
 
Last edited:

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
Here's a couple of mine, A complete24kg S&S session and Sinister session.

Some to look for on Instagram: sokolstrong, liftwithhollyandarryn, coachalexei, girevik777, noahmarek2, jodybeasley, _coach_jake, _coach_karen_, haraldmotz, icebox_kettlebell, strongmobility, the_strong_yogi, zachhenderson_, pavelmacekom, hmg_fitness, sousastrong, strongashec, evolution_strength_performance, kettlebell_qatar

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for!


If you can get some flat-soled shoes or go barefoot, you'll be able to get the balance, rooting, and power production a lot better. Shoes with squishy soles make swings much more difficult.

Great advice above from Steve. Keep practicing - you're doing well!

Will wearing socks be the same as barefoot? I'm using the shoes for making some plyometric movements not hurt my knees... and some gyms don't allow shoeless/barefoot.

Thank you.
 

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
A quick question..

It looks like you're based in southeast Asia.. May we know which country?

Usually the issues you have with KB movements are addressed by consulting with an SFG for hands-on instruction

I'm in the Philippines and I don't believe that an SFG instructor goes here...

Which means, an SFG instructed gym here is one of my plans for the future :^)
 

Steve W.

Level 8 Valued Member
...You're saying that, I should have a visible "Arms Only" downswing for 500-700ms before I hinge, is that correct?
What cues lets me know that the downswing was enough before I hinge?

I thought my hinge timing was enough, and that any delay will make me have painful contact lol.

You certainly don't want painful contact. You want your arms to be connected to your torso so you can absorb the force of the backswing with your hips. You don't want to hinge too quickly ahead of the arms. @Pavel Macek has a good video on the timing:

But, reducing hip drive/snap will make me have more arm involvement/upward pull since there's no momentum from the hips if I aim for smooth upward extension? I think I've read/watched somewhere that the swings should be a hips only, explosive movement...
I did not say anything about reducing hip drive or pulling with the arms. I advised against violently snapping the knees into full extension. Extending smoothly does not imply reducing power.

By saying "Extend smoothly and tense up just as you hit full extension.", I'm visualizing that as "extend upwards with a relaxed body/hips, then contract all muscles before you hit the top", which, again, I don't see a way for me to bring the kettlebell up to vertical plank position with a relaxed hip drive WITHOUT having an arm pull involved. Can you please elaborate?
The swing has a rhythm of tightness and relaxation, and that tighness and relaxation is not all or nothing. You need to be tight WHEN and WHERE you need to in order to generate power and maintain stability, and you need to relax WHEN and WHERE you need to in order to move quickly and fluidly.

The hip drive powers the KB out of the bottom, but then the bell continues from that momentum. It's a ballistic lift so the bell should float up on its own. Unnecessary tension when the bell should be floating just wastes power.

But yeah, I see how my body shakes at the top, but I wonder how do I balance explosiveness and stability here...
There is no conflict between explosiveness and stability here. Slamming into the lockout is just a waste of energy that disrupts your stability. The bell should be floating by that point and there is no "explosiveness" powering the bell while it is floating.
I think, the bell flip is caused by me wanting to stop the bell's upward movement by forcing the bell down.
Just let it float. The bell should be an extension of the arm. When the bell reaches its apex, you can actively sweep it down into the downswing.
Vertical hop happens because of unstable footing because of shoes
The vertical hop is not due to the shoes. You can root solidly with or without shoes. Flat shoes make it easier, but the shoes aren't CAUSING you to hop.
 
Last edited:

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I'm in the Philippines and I don't believe that an SFG instructor goes here...

Which means, an SFG instructed gym here is one of my plans for the future :^)

You happen to be in luck.

I'm based in metro Manila..

I'm just guessing you didn't use the find an instructor search feature?

And yes, in case you're wondering, oo nagtatagalog din ako kung dun ka mas kumportable :)
 

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
You certainly don't want painful contact. You want your arms to be connected to your torso so you can absorb the force of the backswing with your hips. You don't want to hinge too quickly ahead of the arms. @Pavel Macek has a good video on the timing:


I did not say anything about reducting hip drive or pulling with the arms. I advised against violently snapping the knees into full extension. Extending smoothly does not imply reducing power.


The swing has a rhythm of tightness and relaxation, and that tighness and relaxation is not all or nothing. You need to be tight WHEN and WHERE you need to in order to generate power and maintain stability, and you need to relax WHEN and WHERE you need to in order to move quickly and fluidly.

The hip drive powers the KB out of the bottom, but then the bell continues from that momentum. It's a ballistic lift so the bell should float up on its own. Unnecessary tension when the bell should be floating just wastes power.


There is no conflict between explosiveness and stability here. Slamming into the lockout is just a waste of energy that disrupts your stability. The bell should be floating by that point and there is no "explosiveness" powering the bell while it is floating.

Just let it float. The bell should be an extension of the arm. When the bell reaches its apex, you can actively sweep it down into the downswing.

The vertical hop is not due to the shoes. You can root solidly with or without shoes. Flat shoes make it easier, but the shoes aren't CAUSING you to hop.

Okay, so I did swings earlier, and taking your words into consideration, I was able to notice that when I hip drive up, I don't release the contraction until the vertical plank or sometime after the vertical plank, causing the vibration as you have observed...

So I tried really relaxing as soon as possible after tensing for the hip drive motion, and was able to feel the bell floating.

But when I tried:
1. Contracting on the hip drive motion(tense)
2. Release tension after the hip drive(relax)
3. Contract muscles on the vertical plank(tense),

The rhythm somehow gets off balance as the transition between hip drive and vertical plank is too fast.. for now.

Is tense-relax-tense the correct pattern? Or tense-relax-relax?
What is the correct pattern?


If I aim for straight arms (bell as extension of the arms) on the vertical plank though, the bell and arms will go overhead as the bell is too light, so I should either let it bend a little(prevent excessive upswing), or I start using a heavier bell?
 
Last edited:

Reventio007

Level 3 Valued Member
So...

Hip Drive (tense)
Upswing/Momentum (relax)
Vertical Plank/Apex (tense)
Downswing (Relax?)
Hinge (Relax?)

I keep watching that better tip for the swings, yes. Maybe I should practice my swings with the bench so as to perfect the hinge timing??
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
practice the timing by doing air swings, chop and pop drills first..

when doing it with the bell do it at 50% power and speed, the precision will take care of the rep speed and float
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Top Bottom