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Simple & Sinister - General discussion

Pavel.Kosenkov said:
Guys, who does what for the goblet squat?
Do you do them?
How heavy, how much?
The recommendation is: 3-5x3-5 with the weight we are swinging, and treat it as a stretch.
Does anyone go heavier? If so - why?
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This I do not follow precisely. I have been corrected by Anna C and Brett Jones. Apparently I have very good range of motion. Too good. So I’m working on sitting above ATG and have scaled back the weight. Anyway though. Generalizations;

- Usually do a first set w/ 16KG and really am trying to emphasize the prying and curls. I see how I feel. If I feel sporty I’ll just go straight to using the 24 or 32 and do at least two sets of 5…but sometimes I’ll do more reps in a set too. Sometimes I’ll emphasis the curls or the prying with a heavier weight. And sometimes I’ll use a slower descent and then explosive concentric.

- I have gone as far as just replace the goblet with double front squat on occasion.

- Even when I’m not doing S&S that day. I’ve likely done at least a few sets of goblet squats, or unweighted cossacks. Or hack squats. I squat almost every day. Just not lots of sets.
 
I am late to this thread but am very curious about mixing 2HS and 1HS throughout the process. I am being corrected for right side dysfunction due to excessive pronation, so 1HS can become problematic if done without 2HS breaks. I am really curious if you can ride the 2HS up to 32kg and then come back down on the 1HS until it too ascends to the 32kg target.
 
Denys Carthusian said:
am really curious if you can ride the 2HS up to 32kg and then come back down on the 1HS until it too ascends to the 32kg target.
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Do you mean taking one hand off on the downswing? Or am i missing your point.

IMO, from my experience, if the 1H is too heavy, then coming down with it will not be good for you. I found the muscles in my back that were not strong enough to confidently/strong pick up the weight one handed - were tested the most on the down swing, into the hike.

If you mean, doing 2H until you are ready to go to 1H - yes, for sure. I've found that eventually, organically, you'll feel ready to start adding in 1H after you've been doing 2H at 32 (or any other new weight).

Hope i was clear.
 
TedM said:
Do you mean taking one hand off on the downswing? Or am i missing your point.

IMO, from my experience, if the 1H is too heavy, then coming down with it will not be good for you. I found the muscles in my back that were not strong enough to confidently/strong pick up the weight one handed - were tested the most on the down swing, into the hike.

If you mean, doing 2H until you are ready to go to 1H - yes, for sure. I've found that eventually, organically, you'll feel ready to start adding in 1H after you've been doing 2H at 32 (or any other new weight).

Hope i was clear.
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Yes, I was speaking of two hand swings until ready to go to one hand swings.
 
To add to my example: Could someone get to Simple only using 2 Hand Swings and then lower the weight and build back up to 32 kg on 1 Hand Swings?
 
Denys Carthusian said:
Yes, I was speaking of two hand swings until ready to go to one hand swings.
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My personal experience is - yes, definitely. That's what worked for me.

I started 2H at 16 and stayed with it till it felt too light. Then I moved to 24 2H and included 1H16 for awhile.
I found, as @Anna C has said elsewhere, you'll start to feel your current bell /swing is too light. Then you move up, Per the S&S of changing the third set to be 1H, and then 2 weeks later - the third and fourth, etc.

Just need to be very patient and pay attention form and how your body feels.
 
Denys Carthusian said:
To add to my example: Could someone get to Simple only using 2 Hand Swings and then lower the weight and build back up to 32 kg on 1 Hand Swings?
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Yes. Do what you can with what you have where you are.

On a slight tangent, 2HSW are often overlooked and they do have their place.

In fact there are several S&S - based program variations based on alternating 2HSW and OHSW.
 
It’s strange to me that the transition from 2HS to 1HS isn’t programmed in the book - there’s so much detail and step by step progression for everything once you get to 1HS and Full get ups.

A nice addition in the book or course would be how to progress to 10x10 1H swings (using BW hinges, KB deadlifts, pendulum swings, 2H swings etc) and how to progress to full Turkish get ups (from BW partials, to show get ups, to partials with KB etc).

I can imagine that a lot of people rush through that stage, but since there’s no laid out progression plan people have nothing to ‘default’ to.

My own plan is this, is a month (~12 sessions) enough for building up to the 1HS? Have others taken shorter/longer?
March: build up to 10x10 2HS (16), 5/5x1 TGU (16)
April: build up to 10x10 1HS (16), slow down TGU reps and improve form(16)
May: Step progression on both
June: Step progression on both
July: Step progression on both
August: Step progression on both
September: Step progression on both, now all sets 24
 
Francisco said:
Yes and also there is a variation in KBSF. Which, admittedly is not pure S&S, but it is still swings and TGU…
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KBSF is a great program.
Sets of 5 swings are meant to be A+A.
And the program gives a good recommendations: % of body-weight, practice time and frequency. It has a bit of a grading system - novice / medium / advanced.
The novice practice is described as a regular S&S by the way.
Also - a good transition to C+J program there, with 1 or 2 bells. Also A+A.
As a bonus (I think) - you can get the Iron Cardio program, and continue on the A+A path further.

The biggest benefits I think are:
1. 3 day a week frequency
2. A connection between body-weight, bell size and practice time.
 
SUOMI-PUKU said:
It’s strange to me that the transition from 2HS to 1HS isn’t programmed in the book - there’s so much detail and step by step progression for everything once you get to 1HS and Full get ups.

A nice addition in the book or course would be how to progress to 10x10 1H swings (using BW hinges, KB deadlifts, pendulum swings, 2H swings etc) and how to progress to full Turkish get ups (from BW partials, to show get ups, to partials with KB etc).

I can imagine that a lot of people rush through that stage, but since there’s no laid out progression plan people have nothing to ‘default’ to.

My own plan is this, is a month (~12 sessions) enough for building up to the 1HS? Have others taken shorter/longer?
March: build up to 10x10 2HS (16), 5/5x1 TGU (16)
April: build up to 10x10 1HS (16), slow down TGU reps and improve form(16)
May: Step progression on both
June: Step progression on both
July: Step progression on both
August: Step progression on both
September: Step progression on both, now all sets 24
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I am not a big or strong individual, so I done THINK I’m unique, but I transitioned from the early movements to the full S&S program with a 16 kg bell within the first few days.

The unloaded versions of the movements and even the 2 hand swing are to groove the pattern, but at that weight it certainly didn’t take long to switch to 1 hand swings for my daily practice. That was back with the original version of the program, so I don’t believe scheduled 2HS days were part of the program, they were to be used when overly tired.
 
I guess I will find out how long it takes me in April (or possibly May as well if it spills over!)

Another session in the bag yesterday. Need to cue to myself to really plank at the top of the swing, noticed a few times I was letting that go.

Get ups felt meditative and fun as usual. Really enjoying that movement, it’s like my dessert, after my veggies which I don’t like much but know are good for me (swings).

Im struggling to also find time (or the energy/discipline realistically) for stretching later on. So find I am doing my workout one day and mobility/stretching the next. So also want to up the frequency here too, so my QL straddle starts looking more like Pavels in the book!
 
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BJJ Shawn said:
I am not a big or strong individual, so I done THINK I’m unique, but I transitioned from the early movements to the full S&S program with a 16 kg bell within the first few days.

The unloaded versions of the movements and even the 2 hand swing are to groove the pattern, but at that weight it certainly didn’t take long to switch to 1 hand swings for my daily practice. That was back with the original version of the program, so I don’t believe scheduled 2HS days were part of the program, they were to be used when overly tired.
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Yes, I think you're right. The way I read the book the main goal starting at pg. 39 is to get to 1H swings "quickish" and then that becomes the main focus.

If I could rewind time and start over, I think I would spend more time doing only 1H swings with the 16KG (or perhaps taping a roughly 4KG plate to the bottom of it) for a longer period of time before trying to progress to the 24KG and really dial in my technique and give all those little stabilizers, abdominal muscles and connective tissues time to really strengthen up.

Right now I pretty much just do 1st session 1H, 2nd session of the week 2H, then the 3rd session 1H again. I'm still working through an SI joint problem and am sticking to the 24KG right now and really trying to dial in technique for swings before I start adding the 32KG again. And then I'm going to follow the step progression religiously.

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SUOMI-PUKU said:
I guess I will find out how long it takes me in April (or possibly May as well if it spills over!)

Another session in the bag yesterday. Need to cue to myself to really plank at the top of the swing, noticed a few times I was letting that go.

Get ups felt meditative and fun as usual. Really enjoying that movement, it’s like my dessert, after my veggies which I don’t like much but know are good for me (swings).

Im struggling to also find time (or the energy/discipline realistically) for stretching later on. So find I am doing my workout one day and mobility/stretching the next. So also want to up the frequency here too, so my QL straddle starts looking more like Pavels in the book!
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I've done the same with the stretching. I've also added more stretches, but have fallen back to some very specific ones I do when I first get up in the morning for my hips and SI joint problems I have. Sometimes I'll throw in Salkin's 9 Minute Challenge too, probably not often enough.
Then I often don't do the QL and 90/90 until I'm getting ready for bed. But sometimes I do it 2-3 times a day also. Right after my swings and getups, if I have time.
 
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SUOMI-PUKU said:
Another session in the bag. Feels really solid but will be happy to take the next month after this to stick with the 16 and add the 1HS in and slow down the get ups (particularly the getting down section!).

BW hangs are feeling good to counter a lot of my sitting (question for people, do you do these as dead hangs or keeping the shoulders in the sockets like Pavel says in the RoP instruction?).

Hoping to get to a point where I can sit in the straddle and do the QL stretch but still just breaking this up into 3 separate stretches: hamstring stretch, straddle sit, then a QL stretch.

90/90 I can do well I think, the “top” of the hip on the “back” leg often feels a bit of discomfort when sitting upright but I’m hoping that’s a good thing that will go over time too.
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You're from Finland? Your name implies that you might be. I'm Russian but I live in Finland
 
Yo
SUOMI-PUKU said:
I have come to love the idea of slow and steady progress now.

When I first started with kettlebells I was obsessed with progressing every session, jumping straight in with double C+P programs like The Giant and I did realise my strength - getting to 24kg x 10 one arm press and 24 kgs x 5 reps for double C+P. Probably need an asterisk beside them as not sure on the form.

Sadly I also trained through niggles and I don’t think I ever had good overhead mobility or a good-enough hinge and paid the price a bit in my shoulders and low back on both cleans and presses.

Inspired by Geoff Neupert’s training pyramid I realised The Giant wasn’t a beginner program, and thought I’d start in the right place. Rather than moping about the fact that I always get niggles when training!
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You can try Giant with doubles and you should try to progress at a slower pace.
 
Chimp said:
Yo

You can try Giant with doubles and you should try to progress at a slower pace.
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I don’t have the mobility for doubles overhead right now.

And even if I did, I’d rather just have all sets and reps programmed for me right now. I couldn’t be trusted last time around to not push it and wound up injured.

I’ll definitely be back on The Giant in the future, once I’ve built a base, some mobility and learnt more about my recovery abilities. Maybe single bell maybe double bells.
 
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