Kettlebell Strong! Program Again

[Steve W.]

Whenever I press two bells overhead I have some lower back pain the day after, or even during the same night.

I now asked myself:

Could DCP be done with a belt? This could save one's back. I never saw someone using a belt for kettlebell work, but it could be worth a try.

@Geoff Neupert

If I had to guess, I'd guess that most likely this is because you don't have the mobility to comfortably press double bells and so you are hyperextending your lumbar spine to achieve the lockout position, and possibly the rack position as well.

Double bell presses have a much higher mobility demand than single bell presses, both in the start of the press out of the rack (you can't push yourself away from the bells laterally to initiate the press) and in the lockout.

If you can't do double presses without pain, a modification that MIGHT work for you is to do seesaw presses instead of double military presses. The seesaw press gives you a lot more "wiggle room" in initiating the press out of the rack and in the lockout position.

Alternatively, you might just reduce the weight, especially if you think your lockout position is good. With a challenging weight, you may be leaning back in the rack and in initiating the press, whereas with lighter bells you may be better able to maintain your torso in a zipped up vertical column. But if you are restricted in the lockout such that your lumbar spine needs to hyperextend, this will occur regardless of the weight used.

 

[Geoff Neupert]

Whenever I press two bells overhead I have some lower back pain the day after, or even during the same night.

I now asked myself:

Could DCP be done with a belt? This could save one's back. I never saw someone using a belt for kettlebell work, but it could be worth a try.

@Geoff Neupert

Xene,

This is what we call in the biz, an "indicator."

You should not have any back pain during or after pressing overhead. Slapping a belt on there is addressing the symptom, not the problem.

Are you doing any direct abdominal work?

 

[Geoff Neupert]

This thread is outstanding. Impressive results as always @John Grahill !

I've run strong! with 24s in the past and I'm currently running DFW with 24s. I want to run Strong again after DFW but the great KB shortage might make it difficult. I have double 32s but only one 28. I'm guessing 28s would be the ideal weight for my next round of Strong!

Hopefully I'll be able to press the 32s for 4 reps after DFW. However if I can't get 4 solid reps and the 28 isn't back in stock what options do I have for getting the 32s to 4 reps to run strong?

I'm considering:

1. Soju and tuba with the 32s (if I get 2 or 3 reps with the 32s)

2. Jumping straight into Strong phase 2 again with the 24s if the 32s are giving me problems.

3. Strong with the 32s as a push press.

Which of those options (or any I've missed) sounds like the best way to get to Strong with the 32s?

For reference in DFW I just did 7x(1, 2, 3) in 30 mins with the 24s yesterday. I've gotten 3 reps in the past with a single 32 but only 1 with double 32s.

Thanks for everything @Geoff Neupert. DFW is great, I'm loving it. Strength shortcuts is ridiculously good period. Even more so for a give away.

George,

You're welcome. Glad to help.

"Which of those options (or any I've missed) sounds like the best way to get to Strong with the 32s?"

#3, IMO. Make sure you use an active negative on the PP.

Hope that helps.

 

[John Grahill]

@George Vrotsos , if I may recommend, try the clean and push press for "Strong!"...I did this back in 2015 and went through it with the active negative. I was then able to go back through "Strong!" again with the clean and press.

 

[jhpowers]

Whenever I press two bells overhead I have some lower back pain the day after, or even during the same night.

I had this problem with the double C &P. What helped me was correcting an anterior pelvic tilt at the top of the clean and during the press. Adding RKC planks and the ab wheel to my warm up helped to correct the tilt.

 

[Xene]

@George Vrotsos : I am doing OS resets and some movements from Stuart McGill almost every day (started with GGP some weeks ago) and I 'normally' don't have issues with my lower back (had this yeeears ago).

@Steve W. : I guess you are right. My mobility lacks, especially my overhead mobility. Those seesaw presses look amazing. Taking lighter bells is also a good idea. Thank you for your tipps and thoughts.

@Geoff Neupert : That's correct, too. I just thought about that I sometimes do heavy clean and presses and overhead presses with my barbell and then I use the belt. That's the reason I asked myself why not try this one. But I get the point. I do lots of planks, sit ups, loaded carries, etc. Never felt to have a weak mid section. I guess I compensate missing mobility with leaning back too much.

@jhpowers : I do lots of planks and already use the wheel. But I will keep on doing this.

Thank you all for your answers! Appreciate it.

 

[Tirofijo]

This thread is outstanding. Impressive results as always @John Grahill !

I've run strong! with 24s in the past and I'm currently running DFW with 24s. I want to run Strong again after DFW but the great KB shortage might make it difficult. I have double 32s but only one 28. I'm guessing 28s would be the ideal weight forI'm considering:

1. Soju and tuba with the 32s (if I get 2 or 3 reps with the 32s)

2. Jumping straight into Strong phase 2 again with the 24s if the 32s are giving me problems.

3. Strong with the 32s as a push press.

Which of those options (or any I've missed) sounds like the best way to get to Strong with the 32s?

I’m doing your second option now but with 26s. (24kgs with five pound plates duct taped to the bottom). A while back I did Phase One with 26s and had to stop in Phase 2 when I moved and no longer had access to the kettlebells. I moved over to a barbell since that’s what I had at my work gym.

With Covid closing my work gym, I dug out the 26s. They were too light for phase one but just right for phase 2. 10x3 was a hard session the first day. Now I’m up to 6x5 and the 10x3 days feel easy. It seems to be working. I still have a ways to go.

I’ll take a break and do some park bench workouts and then see what I can start Phase One with. I’m going to pair my 28 and I reckon if I can add weight and makes them 30s and start over I’ll be doing pretty good. 32s might be a tad optimistic for me but you never know.

Of course, I don’t know your training age. I’m 47, pretty lean, and have been training for a while, so I don’t just easily add muscle or strength. You could very well make faster gains than me. You’ll know more when you finish DFW and test.

 

[Sean M]

This thread is outstanding. Impressive results as always @John Grahill !

I've run strong! with 24s in the past and I'm currently running DFW with 24s. I want to run Strong again after DFW but the great KB shortage might make it difficult. I have double 32s but only one 28. I'm guessing 28s would be the ideal weight for my next round of Strong!

Hopefully I'll be able to press the 32s for 4 reps after DFW. However if I can't get 4 solid reps and the 28 isn't back in stock what options do I have for getting the 32s to 4 reps to run strong?

I'm considering:

1. Soju and tuba with the 32s (if I get 2 or 3 reps with the 32s)

2. Jumping straight into Strong phase 2 again with the 24s if the 32s are giving me problems.

3. Strong with the 32s as a push press.

Which of those options (or any I've missed) sounds like the best way to get to Strong with the 32s?

For reference in DFW I just did 7x(1, 2, 3) in 30 mins with the 24s yesterday. I've gotten 3 reps in the past with a single 32 but only 1 with double 32s.

Thanks for everything @Geoff Neupert. DFW is great, I'm loving it. Strength shortcuts is ridiculously good period. Even more so for a give away.

With 4RM I would repeat each paired session of Phase 1, e.g. 10x1, 5x2, repeat (so now it’s Wednesday of week 2), 10x1, 6x2, repeat, etc. Basically spend more time with 1’s and 2’s with 4RM. That will make it a 5RM faster than another go with 24s.

 

[Provx]

Wanted to share a WTH from running phase 1 strong with 36kgs. I am almost done with phase 1, will be able to re-test my max next week.

In the meantime finished a 2 rep workout today and felt pretty good so i decided to try to double snatch my 32s and was successful.

I have tried to double snatch 32s before and failed miserably. In the past i have double snatched 28kgs for a couple reps but it was tough. I have not snatched since i began kettlebell strong, let alone double snatch. Last time i was snatching it was using 24 or 28kg single bells for q&d. I currently weigh about 80kgs.

Looking forward to the double press max rep test coming up

 

[Dries S]

Little technical question here: Would it be possible/advisible to run the Strong program with a barbell instead of double kb's?

I don't have a pair of kb's that fit into my 4-5 rep max but I do have a barbell, so I'm just wondering if it would be possible/beneficial?

It just seems like a great program that allows one to keep progressing in the c&p 'endlessly' regardless the tool (kb/barbell/bw)

 

[John Grahill]

@Dries S ... I think using a barbell would work. I have done the program with two dumbbells with success in the past.

 

[Provx]

Did my max rep test today after phase 1 of strong and went from a shaky 4 rep max to a 6 rep max using 36kg bells. My Body weight started and finished at 80 kgs. Honestly when I started the program it was most like a 3 rep max as the 4th rep was poor quality.
It took me about 10 weeks to complete as I cracked a rib in the middle if running this, so all things considered im happy with the results.

i will say that before I cracked the rib i dropped down to my lowest body weight of 73 kgs using 16 hour fasting and running strong. The rib derailed my diet for dumb mental reasons and i finished the program where i began weight wise.

my body is definitely telling me i need a break from double kettlebells for a while, my body felt great doing strong, but my wrist and finger joints took a beating, this is usual for me when lifting heavy.

when i jump back into strong i will run the version where you double the amount of sets on phase 1, the short course would be too much for me at this point in time.

my plan is to run q&d for 8 weeks with 033 swings and pushups. This should help turn this new strength into power for the upcoming golf season. It will also be a single bell and body weight program so it will give my joints a break.

I am now much more comfortable using the 36kgs, when i started simply double cleaning them was difficult. I now hope to run some of my other favorite programs with the 36s such as kettlebell berserk and dry fighting weight. Geoffs 12 week muscle building plan with 36s looks like it would be solid as well.

overall i am happy I completed phase 1 strong, it is basically a strength focused a+a session, which i find more enjoyable than swings or snatches for a+a sessions.

 

[Tom Flint]

Did my max rep test today after phase 1 of strong and went from a shaky 4 rep max to a 6 rep max using 36kg bells. My Body weight started and finished at 80 kgs. Honestly when I started the program it was most like a 3 rep max as the 4th rep was poor quality.
It took me about 10 weeks to complete as I cracked a rib in the middle if running this, so all things considered im happy with the results.

i will say that before I cracked the rib i dropped down to my lowest body weight of 73 kgs using 16 hour fasting and running strong. The rib derailed my diet for dumb mental reasons and i finished the program where i began weight wise.

my body is definitely telling me i need a break from double kettlebells for a while, my body felt great doing strong, but my wrist and finger joints took a beating, this is usual for me when lifting heavy.

when i jump back into strong i will run the version where you double the amount of sets on phase 1, the short course would be too much for me at this point in time.

my plan is to run q&d for 8 weeks with 033 swings and pushups. This should help turn this new strength into power for the upcoming golf season. It will also be a single bell and body weight program so it will give my joints a break.

I am now much more comfortable using the 36kgs, when i started simply double cleaning them was difficult. I now hope to run some of my other favorite programs with the 36s such as kettlebell berserk and dry fighting weight. Geoffs 12 week muscle building plan with 36s looks like it would be solid as well.

overall i am happy I completed phase 1 strong, it is basically a strength focused a+a session, which i find more enjoyable than swings or snatches for a+a sessions.

A shaky 4 reps to a decent 6 reps with 36s doesn’t sound bad at all. Well done! I’m impressed that a cracked rib only added 2 weeks on, too; it can’t have been much fun cleaning and pressing with that to think about.

I have to say I’m intrigued by your shifts in bodyweight. How did you feel about your strength progress during those 5 or so weeks in which you dropped 7kg? I’m currently half way through phase 1 with 32s and I’m completely undecided about how to eat as I don’t want to jeopardise any progress by under-eating too much. I fast on a 16/8 schedule but I’m eating enough that my weight is stable, though I’d like to drop around 5-7kg at some point soon.

Will you do anything differently about the way you eat next time you run your double volume phase 1?

 

[Provx]

A shaky 4 reps to a decent 6 reps with 36s doesn’t sound bad at all. Well done! I’m impressed that a cracked rib only added 2 weeks on, too; it can’t have been much fun cleaning and pressing with that to think about.

I have to say I’m intrigued by your shifts in bodyweight. How did you feel about your strength progress during those 5 or so weeks in which you dropped 7kg? I’m currently half way through phase 1 with 32s and I’m completely undecided about how to eat as I don’t want to jeopardise any progress by under-eating too much. I fast on a 16/8 schedule but I’m eating enough that my weight is stable, though I’d like to drop around 5-7kg at some point soon.

Will you do anything differently about the way you eat next time you run your double volume phase 1?

i felt better and stronger when i was less weight. Basically I couldn’t sleep for a couple weeks after i cracked my rib because laying down was uncomfortable, lack of sleep i think is the main reason I didn’t make bigger gains and had fluctuations in weight.

i really think Geoffs advice to limit the amount of carbs you eat on non lifting days works well when combined with IF. I did use a warrior diet approach and eat a handful of almonds mid day if i felt hungry and had coffee and cream in the morning, but 80% of my calories came in the evening.

I really won’t change my approach when i re-run phase 1. I would prefer to do it over the winter when i have more time to recover fully with sleep is all.

 

[SantaClause]

Today I completed the STRONG short course with 2x28kg bells (clean and press) and It was a lot harder than I would have thought. In the end I had to rest over 4 minutes between sets of sixes! After 2,5 cycles of rop and little grease the groove I lifted 40kg single arm clean and press about two months ago and thought this would be piece of cake as I'd be "only" using the 28's. Three weeks ago I decided to start the short course and was in rude awakening as double lifts are much more demanding and tiring. I hadn't done any double lifts in over two years so I don't know about the results. Later this week I'm starting phase one using double 32's.

So today was one of the toughest training sessions of my life. Can't wait to do It again in the future using heavier bells.

 

[Kalle Videnoja]

I just spent half a year with Kettlebell Strong. I only did phase 1 and phase 2 as per slow and steady, and decided to skip phase 3 in order to cycle back to a more strength-oriented program.

Starting point:

I had run S&S until timed simple and then RoP with a 24 bell, after which I had been on park bench mode for half a year concentrating mostly on martial arts. Before KBS! my max press was 32kg with my right and 28kg with my left arm and my max for double 24’s was 6 reps. I didn’t add any pure strength work to KBS! But I did do some martial arts in January and February before the COVID-19 lockdown and after the gyms closed, I continued with 2-3 MAF runs a week.

Results:

After 8 weeks of phase one, I could press the 32kg twice with my right and once with my left arm and press double 24’s 11 times.

After 16 weeks of phase two my double 24’s max was now 12 reps, which seems kind of low compared to the results 16 weeks earlier. Then again, I could press 32 bell six times with my right and four times with my left arm. Also, my mid-section and shoulders got a lot thicker so there was quite remarkable hypertrophy in those last weeks when the volume got higher.

As a disclaimer I must say, that I dug a ditch for two hours on the day before the final testing so maybe I could have been able to squeeze out a couple of more reps if I had rested a full day before the test.

Recommendation:

The program delivered what it promised: strength and hypertrophy. I’m looking forward to returning to this program with the 32’s, hopefully already next year.

 

[John Grahill]

@Kalle Videnoja , that's a great effort! You can probably look at the final 16 weeks in another way...I am willing to bet that your now 12 RM is more "efficient looking" or technically correct in form than the 11 RM was after phase 1. By the way, yes, I think digging a ditch will have an effect on the rep count for sure.

 

[Kalle Videnoja]

@John Grahill, thank you! And yes, I think that my presses had much stronger groove at the end of the 2nd phase. I could lift a set of six reps casually without conscious focus on cues provided in video materials whereas at the end of the 1st phase I really had to concentrate on tension to avoid shaky presses after three reps. Also, I think that I gained some ”core” strength along the way making e.g. front squats much easier. I haven’t tested my pull-up but the active pull would really fire my lats so I believe that I might find some progress there, too.

 

[John Grahill]

Each time I've gone through Strong! I haven't lost any pull up ability/strength and once actually increased my pull ups!

Just finished slugging through a "slow and steady" session this morning! Love this program and the results it gives!

 

[Tjerr]

I've tried to do Strong! and One combined in the original format from the book. I've done the 25s:35s yesterday and it spiked my migraine to such a degree that I don't want to do it again...

If I follow the Article from Geoff, he says to lengthen the One program and make it a low rep EMOM. Is it too thought trough to do it like this:
(15s:45s = 9 double swings x 10 minutes = 90 double swings) 90 / 5 = 5 reps for 18' EMOM.
(20s: 40s = 12 double swings x 10 minutes = 120 double swings) 120 / 5 = 5 reps for 24'EMOM
etc?

Or am I missing the point completly? Or is doing A+A Snatches more recommended?

Edit: Strong! with double 32's (very tough 4RM) One started with double 24's, yesterdays workout with double 20's.