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Kettlebell Strong! Program Again

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My last run through Strong with the 36's back in 2015 saw me take my 4 RM to an 11 RM, drop body fat, and drop my resting pulse. This while focussing on getting "strong" with a pair of kettlebells and at about 90 minutes of training per week.

After bouncing around all over the place with various programs of barbells, dumbbells and kettlebells during the past few years I decided a couple of weeks ago to return to what worked and hope to replicate or exceed previous bests with the 36s. (Clean and Press). I'm going to be patient as I'm a bit older now ;).
 
John Grahill said:
Wow, didn't do much of anything this weekend and really looked forward to today's training, a 10x1 day. I did 2 28s for 2 x 3 rounds, same with the 32s then hit the 10x1s taking my time and completing them strongly. Felt refreshed!

The only thing missing was Jason Aldean on the radio! (Did hear Randy Houser though so not a total waste!)
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I don't know anything about the STRONG program, but you get a LIKE from me just for your great choice in music!
 
@Bauer it does not make sense on surface. If I may, let me share with you something I have experienced myself and something I used with a student..

Early 2017 I was running return of the kettlebell with 20 and 24kg kettlebells,

I baseline tested the snatch test with my test weight which is 20kg, I clocked in at 4:40

A few months back, I recerted and managed an unbroken snatch test roughly sub 4 minutes and leading to the prep, I was doing mostly double bell complexes using 20-28 kg.

I didn't do a ton of conditioning work or snatch specific prep. All I can say is that when you are using a pair of kettlebells for most of your training 2 sizes up your snatch size bell, the snatch test does not become that challenging (still unpleasant but more manageable)

Student of mine worked up to snatching a 32kg for 5 reps every 30sec for 5 minutes.. Got his best snatch test time at his level 1.

We are called strong first for a reason :) not strong only

Hope this gives more clarity
 
The insight I got from @Geoff Neupert and @Mark Limbaga is that conditioning is a function of how hard the task is. As anyone who has made at least some real progress to simple knows it takes a lot less effort to swing the 16 and 24 when your working weight is the 32. So even if your absolute conditioning measured by something like resting heart rate or recovery time hadn’t improved, your effective conditioning will have.

S&S obviously improves both strength snd aerobic qualities but in real life you can’t really separate the two.
 
Tim Randolph said:
The insight I got from @Geoff Neupert and @Mark Limbaga is that conditioning is a function of how hard the task is. As anyone who has made at least some real progress to simple knows it takes a lot less effort to swing the 16 and 24 when your working weight is the 32. So even if your absolute conditioning measured by something like resting heart rate or recovery time hadn’t improved, your effective conditioning will have.

S&S obviously improves both strength snd aerobic qualities but in real life you can’t really separate the two.
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Pavel calls this phenomenon “strength reserve” in Q&D.

In the context of Strong or any other intelligent progression scheme, “conditioning” can also be measured by one’s new ability to get an amount of work done that one couldn’t previously do at all, e.g. working a 4RM pair of bells up to 10 sets of 6 reps.
 
I have reached a point where for my next strength program i would like to run strong or dfw with 36kgs as that is my 4-5 rep bell on press, but i really have trouble double cleaning 36s for reps, double 36 is almost half my bodyweight. I think i need to just practice sets of 2 cleans with them until it becomes easy then move up that way until i reach 5 reps before starting strong.
 
Geoff Neupert said:
Hopefully that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Many thanks Geoff for all the clarifications!

In fact, having this opportunity, I do have a further question. What strength/skill baseline would you recommend prior to starting the program? For example is a one hand press program preferred first, like ROP, or can one jump directly into Strong!
 
Provx said:
I have reached a point where for my next strength program i would like to run strong or dfw with 36kgs as that is my 4-5 rep bell on press, but i really have trouble double cleaning 36s for reps, double 36 is almost half my bodyweight. I think i need to just practice sets of 2 cleans with them until it becomes easy then move up that way until i reach 5 reps before starting strong.
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I have wondered if the Strong progression with just double clean (a pair of bells you clean - and only clean, not get overhead or really squat with) would be worthwhile, more than C&P with a lighter pair...
 
Sean M said:
Pavel calls this phenomenon “strength reserve” in Q&D.
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Ah. That is very interesting extension of how I understood the term. My wife teaches strength to seniors that are close to their 1RM just in every day activities. I always thought of this from the ability to easily handle a weight but hadn’t thought about the energetic aspect. Thanks for pointing it out.

BTW, I wasn’t able to find the reference in Q&D. I would love a pointer if it is easy.
 
@Bauer your recall is amazing and much appreciated. I sprung for the kindle edition of S&S2. I now own both versions and audio for both editions. ?

In any even you are correct and @Sean M’s reference is right on:

“The high road goes through building a strength reserve. Strength makes everything easier and you can make the five-minute goal weight feel light. Pavel Macek recalls, “32 felt like 24 when my main training weight was 40—I could do the [five-minute Simple] test any time with 32.””

— Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition by Pavel Tsatsouline (location 1843 in Kindle)
/QUOTE]
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Provx said:
I have reached a point where for my next strength program i would like to run strong or dfw with 36kgs as that is my 4-5 rep bell on press, but i really have trouble double cleaning 36s for reps, double 36 is almost half my bodyweight. I think i need to just practice sets of 2 cleans with them until it becomes easy then move up that way until i reach 5 reps before starting strong.
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Provx,

You most certainly could do that.

I also recommend you drive up your DFSQ strength because that will drive up your DCL strength by default (in most cases).

Hope that helps.
 
Molson said:
Many thanks Geoff for all the clarifications!

In fact, having this opportunity, I do have a further question. What strength/skill baseline would you recommend prior to starting the program? For example is a one hand press program preferred first, like ROP, or can one jump directly into Strong!
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Molson,

Rumor has it there’s an article coming out that specifically addresses that question. ;-) So I won’t divulge the contents here.

However, I think at a BARE MINIMUM you should be comfortable pressing a 24kg

Hope that helps.
 
Sean M said:
I have wondered if the Strong progression with just double clean (a pair of bells you clean - and only clean, not get overhead or really squat with) would be worthwhile, more than C&P with a lighter pair...
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Sean M,

You can certainly try it out but I think a better variation if you weren’t going to spend some time driving up the DFSQ would be running the program as written but using the Push Press instead of the Press and using a slow negative first followed by an active negative.

Hope that helps.
 
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@Sean M, I can attest to the substitution of the push press for the press. Back before my run through Strong with the 36s in 2015, I had done it with 32s (just phase one sonetime in 2013 or 14). I then did another clean and push press program (RMFB) and later returned to Strong with the clean and push press with the 36s (just phase 1) . Then I did the 40s for phase 1 with the clean and push press. I then hit up the 36s for the clean and strict press. In my case and again like most things it's an individual thing, the push presses made my strict press stronger. I assume the use of heavier weight helped me??? I've seen where some trainees say that push presses don't help and other ones say they do.

Worked for me.
 
Geoff Neupert said:
Sean M,

You can certainly try it out but I think a better variation if you weren’t going to spend some time driving up the DFSQ would be running the program as written but using the Push Press instead of the Press and using a slow negative first followed by an active negative.

Hope that helps.
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I’m hearing the following “pecking order” for Strong exercise selection, right?

C&P (best choice) > Push Press (w/ slow negative) > FSQ > Clean

I’m in a weird place where 2x24kg C&P is 6-7 RM, but I have lost my 2x32kg C&P 1RM and struggle with 2x32kg front squat (probably I’m just out of practice).

Where I’ve landed is start from Slow & Steady with 2x24kg (sets of 3-4), with 2-3 practice reps of 2x32kg cleans at the end or on another day, to get used to the vast power demand difference between those weights. Then maybe transition to phase 1 with 2x32kg front squat, then start phase 1 again with clean and push press once I can manage 3RM with 2x32kg (then run that / C&P up as far as I can).
 
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