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hello,
I've done 2 sessions from the clean and jerk program A so far. I enjoy it very much. However I have difficulties when it comes to understanding the talk test.
on the first session (CJ) I managed to pull it off for the whole 30mins. HR indicates I was aerobic.
1632205041237.png

I added a clean each set, as prescribed (CJC) and stopped midway.
1632205146984.png

I could have gone for longer, however I stopped when I reached estimated 85% of my HR max. However I maintained nasal breathing and was able to manage the extend my exhale and speak in short sentences. I interrupted the session since I thought I'm too much in glycolisis.
My question are:
is it still strength aerobics when I'm crossing my Muff number? Or maybe I should recover below my Muff number before every set?
Is the talk test tantamount to some particular heart rate? Or the heart rate shouldn't be an indicator for this program at all.
And the last one: can the talk test be substituted with an exhale and/or a control pause of particular duration? E.g. If I'm able to exhale for x seconds and/or hold my breath afterwards for y seconds, I pass the test.
 
My current hypothesis, to be tested in a month or so, is that the talk test will be easier to gauge once on the advanced programme with two bells.
This is due to the work:rest ratio difference.
 
Pasibrzuch said:
hello,
I've done 2 sessions from the clean and jerk program A so far. I enjoy it very much. However I have difficulties when it comes to understanding the talk test.
on the first session (CJ) I managed to pull it off for the whole 30mins. HR indicates I was aerobic.
View attachment 14860

I added a clean each set, as prescribed (CJC) and stopped midway.
View attachment 14861

I could have gone for longer, however I stopped when I reached estimated 85% of my HR max. However I maintained nasal breathing and was able to manage the extend my exhale and speak in short sentences. I interrupted the session since I thought I'm too much in glycolisis.
My question are:
is it still strength aerobics when I'm crossing my Muff number? Or maybe I should recover below my Muff number before every set?
Is the talk test tantamount to some particular heart rate? Or the heart rate shouldn't be an indicator for this program at all.
And the last one: can the talk test be substituted with an exhale and/or a control pause of particular duration? E.g. If I'm able to exhale for x seconds and/or hold my breath afterwards for y seconds, I pass the test.
Click to expand...
My take is that Pavel would know about this and you should use the talk test instead of max HR.

Here is my reasoning from another thread:
Bauer said:
But my take is that average HR might be higher with LCCJ even when passing the talk test because HR might not be perfectly correlated to fuel depletion. Ballistics might use up ATP/CP faster and give you less chance of replenishing them during the effort. The LCCJ might be different here. At least this is one possible conclusion one could draw from Pavels quote on LCCJs in Q&D.

Which leads to an interesting question: At which average HR could you pass the talk test during different exercises?
Running, cycling, climbing, rowing, hiking, swings, snatches, LCCJ, TGU, burpees, might all have a different threshold here.
Click to expand...
And here is Pavels Quote, that I was referring to:
(...) clean-and-jerk. Although it involves more muscle groups than any lift I can think of, the long cycle relays the work between muscle groups in such a way that no participant gets too smoked: dip, drive, second dip, lock out, dip, and catch. The C&J’s multistage nature slows down the cellular fuels’ depletion. It is a tremendous asset in some types of training (such as classic Soviet anti-glycolytic protocols), but it works against you when you are trying to use up your substrates ASAP.

Tsatsouline, Pavel. The Quick and the Dead: Total Training for the Advanced Minimalist (S.78). StrongFirst, Inc.. Kindle-Version.
Click to expand...
And from ROTK
The double kettlebell C&J leaves no muscle untrashed and pushes your heart and lungs to the limit. There is an opinion in the Russian spec ops community that if you work it hard there is not much else you need to do. Pulls and presses alone could build you into a superman. Add the jerk into the mix or, better yet, the long cycle clean and jerk, and your legs will acquire killer springy power and your conditioning will go up another notch. And if the kettlebells are heavy enough and your technique is right, you will pack on muscles throughout your body and especially on your quads, back, and arms. The double C&J boasts the “what the heck effect” of making you stronger in lifts you are not practicing.

Tsatsouline, Pavel. Return of the Kettlebell: Explosive Kettlebell Training for Explosive Muscle Gains . DD Publications, Inc. Kindle-Version.
Click to expand...
 
@Pasibrzuch Don't overthink it. Consider not actively monitoring the HR readout, only referring back after the session and using the subjective "talk test" as your guide. KB ballistics do odd things to HR monitors compared to what they are typically used for (steady-state aerobic like running, or "cyclical power" work like rowing or cycling). If you are nasal breathing and aren't failing to "catch your breath" by the next interval, carry on.

My opinion is that you are leaving a lot of benefits of KB training on the table if you fixate on the MAF number as a ceiling. Maffetone was writing in the context of people running too "hot", too often (like, hours a week). Elite kettlebell sport athletes' total training time of working sets in a week is nowhere near that of distance endurance athletes, and not all working sets are in that orange zone. And you and I are not elite.
 
Couldn't you just do the S&S fighter version, but sub the push press with lccj?
 
Pasibrzuch said:
Thank you, that clarifies the issue for me. Next session I will not look at HR monitor and just focus on breathing during the rest periods.
Click to expand...
Yeah maf and talk tests are ways of estimating your aerobic threshold. Maf is a great place to start but talk test is more accurate and scales with your fitness levels instead of age.
 
HUNTER1313 said:
Couldn't you just do the S&S fighter version, but sub the push press with lccj?
Click to expand...
Rather jerks without additional cleans, I would think. But sure, you could do that. But it would give you a different effect, given that the weight would have to be lighter.
 
Pasibrzuch said:
hello,

I could have gone for longer, however I stopped when I reached estimated 85% of my HR max.
Click to expand...
Hello, You might find some of the below helpful, its been 20 years since I took an active interest in this topic but I think these fundamental things probably have not changed much.

I'd suggest that unless you have had a formal VO2max test done then the HR measured by a HR strap or a watch is helpful but not definitive. HR is a proxy for VO2max, it is widely used because it is easy to measure as opposed to VO2max which requires a lab or a clinic.

Let me give you an example...............When I was 40 my brand new HR gadget measured 205 during a rowing race and I backed off because I was concerned that HR was well above my theoretical maximum and I might injure myself. Coach later explained that I should not have worried and that my Max HR was probably higher and that these estimates and HRzones are different for each individual and using any values calculated by commercial HR software is only an estimate . I became interested and started reading about HR monitoring.

Most of these max HR estimates and index numbers are derived from equations that summarise big clouds of data points, there are various different equations and indexes espoused by different people and unless YOU are the personification of Joe Average then all of the equations and Zone estimates will be wrong for YOU. Have a look at this scatterplot and you will see what I mean Figure 2. Scatterplot relations of HR max vs age. The line represents... - You can see that the maximum HR for any individual is almost impossible to get right by using the equation represented by the line. There is a huge spread in max HR for any given age - ie look at the spread of max HR for 60 year olds in the graph.

Similarly the zones calculated by HR software will also be innacurate for any given individual person. Thats why things like the Talk Test and the Sing Test and Perceived Exertion are so useful, they reflect more accurately whats happening to you - the individual - rather than a mythical average person represented by a regression equation passing through a cloud of data. There are more graphs and written papers shown on this page heart rate regression graphs - Google Search
 
Last edited:
BillSteamshovel said:
Hello, You might find some of the below helpful, its been 20 years since I took an active interest in this topic but I think these fundamental things probably have not changed much.

I'd suggest that unless you have had a formal VO2max test done then the HR measured by a HR strap or a watch is helpful but not definitive. HR is a proxy for VO2max, it is widely used because it is easy to measure as opposed to VO2max which requires a lab or a clinic.

Let me give you an example...............When I was 40 my brand new HR gadget measured 205 during a rowing race and I backed off because I was concerned that HR was well above my theoretical maximum and I might injure myself. Coach later explained that I should not have worried and that my Max HR was probably higher and that these estimates and HRzones are different for each individual and using the estimates calculated by commercial HR software is only an estimate . I became interested and started reading about HR monitoring.

Most of these max HR estimates and index numbers are derived from equations that summarise big clouds of data points, there are various different equations and indexes espoused by different people and unless YOU are the personification of Joe Average then all of the equations and Zone estimates will be wrong for YOU. Have a look at this scatterplot and you will see what I mean Figure 2. Scatterplot relations of HR max vs age. The line represents... - You can see that the maximum HR for any individual is almost impossible to get right by using the equation represented by the line. There is a huge spread in max HR for any given age - ie look at the spread of max HR for 60 year olds in the graph.

Similarly the zones calculated by HR software will also be innacurate for any given individual person. Thats why things like the Talk Test and the Sing Test and Perceived Exertion are so useful, they reflect more accurately whats happening to you - the individual - rather than a mythical average person represented by a regression equation passing through a cloud of data. There are more graphs and written papers shown on this page heart rate regression graphs - Google Search
Click to expand...
Thabk you for this post. That's very insightful. Talk test is always tricky for me - I don't know how freely I should be able to speak, hoe long should the sentence be and so on. From what I gather it's highly subjective, so I'll stick to my intuition.

HUNTER1313 said:
Couldn't you just do the S&S fighter version, but sub the push press with lccj?
Click to expand...
I served my time with S&S, it was almost two years. Managed to reach timeless sinister for swings and timeless solid for get ups. Then I moved to Q&D and since then alternate it with a+a-ish work, this program is example of. Also, I have a technical problem with my snatch (overpulling), and I hypothesize clean and jerk will fix it - I want to verify my assumptions.
Another reason is that this protocol is said to prevent/delay hypertrophy, which is one of my objectives.
 
Pasibrzuch said:
Thabk you for this post. That's very insightful. Talk test is always tricky for me - I don't know how freely I should be able to speak, hoe long should the sentence be and so on. From what I gather it's highly subjective, so I'll stick to my intuition.


I served my time with S&S, it was almost two years. Managed to reach timeless sinister for swings and timeless solid for get ups. Then I moved to Q&D and since then alternate it with a+a-ish work, this program is example of. Also, I have a technical problem with my snatch (overpulling), and I hypothesize clean and jerk will fix it - I want to verify my assumptions.
Another reason is that this protocol is said to prevent/delay hypertrophy, which is one of my objectives.
Click to expand...
If it’s “can I speak?”, that’s too hard. If it’s “I’m halfway through the Gettysburg Address”, that’s too easy. It’s literally just “are you able to catch your breath or not”.
 
Did the first double LCCJ training session today. 30 minutes with 2x24kg.

I practice kickboxing 2 or 3 times a week and I also run 1 or 2 times a week.

After several months of Q&D I was ready for something different and I plan to alternate the above two programs every 8 weeks.

I will keep track of it in my training blog and how it contributes to my kickboxing training.
 
Day 2 in the books.

Really liking the program so far. Especially the progression. How one goes from just the clean&jerk to adding another clean, to adding time.
 
In the manual it is said that you can add some other strength training if you know what you're doing. Since I'm not sure I know what I doing, I will ask here:
what do you think are the best complementary lifts to the C&J program? I was thinking zercher squat + weighted chin-up or deadlift + weighted dip. Which would be a better pairing?
And, probably more importantly, what programming should be used. My bet would be PTTP or Easy Strength two times a week.
If goals are relevant for this question, mine at the moment is broadly understood GPP, unfortunately with no martial art practice due to an an injury.
What do you think?
 
Pasibrzuch said:
In the manual it is said that you can add some other strength training if you know what you're doing. Since I'm not sure I know what I doing, I will ask here:
what do you think are the best complementary lifts to the C&J program? I was thinking zercher squat + weighted chin-up or deadlift + weighted dip. Which would be a better pairing?
And, probably more importantly, what programming should be used. My bet would be PTTP or Easy Strength two times a week.
If goals are relevant for this question, mine at the moment is broadly understood GPP, unfortunately with no martial art practice due to an an injury.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
Without any martial arts you can definitely add more. Given that LCCJ is GPP whole body movement then I'd agree with your suggestions, choosing Deadlift and weighted dips from personal preference.
I'm currently on Plan B and finding the recovery requirements are higher. Though this time has coincided with a lot more sparring as well, but I'm pretty sure the higher volume is the origin.
Perhaps you could programme your light heavy days at this point to compliment Plan B days, i.e. light dips after jerks.
 
Pasibrzuch said:
In the manual it is said that you can add some other strength training if you know what you're doing. Since I'm not sure I know what I doing, I will ask here:
what do you think are the best complementary lifts to the C&J program? I was thinking zercher squat + weighted chin-up or deadlift + weighted dip. Which would be a better pairing?
And, probably more importantly, what programming should be used. My bet would be PTTP or Easy Strength two times a week.
If goals are relevant for this question, mine at the moment is broadly understood GPP, unfortunately with no martial art practice due to an an injury.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
In addition to what @Pete L says, I think PTTP on Mo/Thu, and LCCJ on Tu/Fri could work well, in line with the template from this article:
www.strongfirst.com

Total Package Weekly Kettlebell Training Template | StrongFirst

If strength and conditioning are equally important to you, this weekly kettlebell training template will serve you well. Includes 3 sample weeks.
www.strongfirst.com

Heavier PTTP days might interfere a bit with the LCCJ days, but you could also add an extra rest day and just train every other day or something like that. I haven't yet started witht the LCCJ plan, but I would like to try a template like that.
 
How does this program compare with alternating s&s and q&d in the specified blocks?
 
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