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Bodyweight HIRT/ATG vs HIIT (questions)

quentin__bsbl

Level 3 Valued Member
Hello I am preparing for the tests of the DSU (intervention group of the Belgian federal police) I am 17 years old, I am already training by doing:
- Weighted FPP
- GTG one arm pull up
- S&S 3x / week
- RZ 3x / week
- Running 3-4x / week

So I inquired about increasing my cardio and so I quickly came across HIIT sessions. But being a Strongfirst follower, I saw that it was totally the opposite of what I had heard here. Although as its name suggests STRONG FIRST is geared towards strength and less towards physical conditioning, I have seen some article notably concerning crossfit which showed the benefits of anti-glycolytic workouts.

I ask myself 2 questions

1) is preparing by avoiding lactic acid for a selection where I will surely bathe in it a good idea?

2) I read a lot of article about ATG vs HIIT training. And I don't really understand why a HIIT will be really bad except for the cells (if you are inspired by an article to answer me you can just send me the link)
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Here is something interesting :

HIIT can be interesting from time to time as a test.

However, for training purposes, AGT (short bouts with ample rest) are more beneficial. For example, hill sprint repeats. This is interesting because as a military, one may be obliged to sprint, recover quickly, and repeat (when running/covering/...)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Bauer

Level 7 Valued Member
1) is preparing by avoiding lactic acid for a selection where I will surely bathe in it a good idea?
In general, train the alactic and aerobic systems first. Heavy glycolytic work has more side effects and is thus more risky. Also, it is developed more quickly, i. e. within 2-4 weeks, so you can focus on other qualities for most of the time and then shift your focus prior to an event that involves glycolysis.

So it would be used as a peaking strategy for 2-4 weeks. (Plan in some tapering before the selection event to come into it fresh).
For example with all-out sprints, if you can tolerate them. Pavel advises to be strong in the first place before using glycolytic work as a strong medicine.

Here is an interesting article for the case of adding HIIT to endurance training:

This article is more general, but highly recommended:
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
As a general rule HIIT should be less than 20-25 minutes per week. Two 12 minute sessions will give you about all the benefit you can get. In my own experience a single 12-15 minute session weekly produced a notable improvement in resistance training recovery speed after about 3-4 weeks of use.

Also, it is important it be done textbook and not some mutant bootcamp type workout. It should not compete with resistance training for recovery resources and should not have any real impact on strength training reserves. Textbook HIIT is NOT long duration glycolysis - it doesn't work that way. Much of what passes for "HIIT" in the fitness public is anything but.

“maximum metabolic disturbance with minimal muscular disruption.”
This is a good article on the topic. When combined with a lot of other work it is best used with very short intervals and very short session length - closer to Tabata than some of the longer working intervals described.

It does work best in combination with steady state aerobic, but the notion it is only primarily adapting enzyme profile short term is not supported by the literature. Substantial long term improvements in mitochondial and capillary density can be achieved using it. It is not as effective at increasing stroke volume compared to steady state, so it tends to not effect resting HR as much, but it does increase stroke pressure and some increase in stroke volume.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Hello I am preparing for the tests of the DSU (intervention group of the Belgian federal police) I am 17 years old, I am already training by doing:
- Weighted FPP
- GTG one arm pull up
- S&S 3x / week
- RZ 3x / week
- Running 3-4x / week

So I inquired about increasing my cardio and so I quickly came across HIIT sessions. But being a Strongfirst follower, I saw that it was totally the opposite of what I had heard here. Although as its name suggests STRONG FIRST is geared towards strength and less towards physical conditioning, I have seen some article notably concerning crossfit which showed the benefits of anti-glycolytic workouts.

I ask myself 2 questions

1) is preparing by avoiding lactic acid for a selection where I will surely bathe in it a good idea?

2) I read a lot of article about ATG vs HIIT training. And I don't really understand why a HIIT will be really bad except for the cells (if you are inspired by an article to answer me you can just send me the link)
How long do you have to prepare before your selection tests?
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@Bauer
I ran it this during the first lockdown in France. I used Timeless Simple for S&S (so 32kg). For RZ, I used 24 for presses and 32 for swings.

It is fairly sustainable but you are right, 32 is a max here. Even a fairly skinny dude like me looked almost muscular that way !

From what I remember in another thread, he uses 24kg.

Alongside this, I did not do HIIT (and would not recommend to add it for recovery purposes). LSD runs would have been great though, but due to lockdown...

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

quentin__bsbl

Level 3 Valued Member
Hello,

@Bauer
I ran it this during the first lockdown in France. I used Timeless Simple for S&S (so 32kg). For RZ, I used 24 for presses and 32 for swings.

It is fairly sustainable but you are right, 32 is a max here. Even a fairly skinny dude like me looked almost muscular that way !

From what I remember in another thread, he uses 24kg.

Alongside this, I did not do HIIT (and would not recommend to add it for recovery purposes). LSD runs would have been great though, but due to lockdown...

Kind regards,

Pet'
Maybe S&S and RZ are a kind of anti-glycolytic HIIT, and therefore we should not add more or it is still better to add more
 

quentin__bsbl

Level 3 Valued Member
As a general rule HIIT should be less than 20-25 minutes per week. Two 12 minute sessions will give you about all the benefit you can get. In my own experience a single 12-15 minute session weekly produced a notable improvement in resistance training recovery speed after about 3-4 weeks of use.

Also, it is important it be done textbook and not some mutant bootcamp type workout. It should not compete with resistance training for recovery resources and should not have any real impact on strength training reserves. Textbook HIIT is NOT long duration glycolysis - it doesn't work that way. Much of what passes for "HIIT" in the fitness public is anything but.


This is a good article on the topic. When combined with a lot of other work it is best used with very short intervals and very short session length - closer to Tabata than some of the longer working intervals described.

It does work best in combination with steady state aerobic, but the notion it is only primarily adapting enzyme profile short term is not supported by the literature. Substantial long term improvements in mitochondial and capillary density can be achieved using it. It is not as effective at increasing stroke volume compared to steady state, so it tends to not effect resting HR as much, but it does increase stroke pressure and some increase in stroke volume.
When you say HIIT you mean real HIIT (where I will end up in a lactic acid bath) or rather a training where I will sprint 5-10 times for example at maximum intensity but where I will rest enough to be able to perform another at maximum intensity?
 

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
I'm guessing your selection process will involve getting smoked, so I would work in a session or two a week with bouts of high intensity followed by short recovery periods. Something like running 4 x 400m with 90 sec. rest in between.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
Sounds a lot like the weekly glycolytic S&S session with S-/G- after Timeless Simple (S&S 2.0) :)
I would expect that approach to produce a more localized effect maybe, while there are real and similar benefits I don't believe it is the same thing.

In my philosophy/understanding, it is almost impossible to do a HIIT session with any sort of resistance as it prevents the HR from maxing out as rapidly as possible. This is something I took on faith, but recently came across some studies that clarified the science behind it.

It is essential that the rate of ATP turnover exceeds as much as possible any aerobic contribution, including pyruvate - greater than 100% VO2 max by as much as can be achieved. That's why the sessions are 8 minutes, 12 minutes, 15 tops. It almost doesn't matter how much you recover between bouts as long as your working output stays high. Your goal is to pull 2 ATP from the glucose for your fast twitch fibers and chuck the rest. Some of it will get burned for slow twitch fibers struggling to keep up and for short term recovery of CrP, but you'll be slamming through that as well. Fast Twich fibers will be depleted at a much higher rate than Slow twitch.

A lot of what is mobilized will be processed back into glucose via Cori cycle, but you can run through 70-80% of the muscle's glucose storage in under 15 minutes.

There are plenty of studies at lower intensities that demonstrate a reduced though still notable effect from all manner of intervals. This is about where the bootcamp/glycolytic resistance intervals fall. I like to use these as a shake-out from too much high tension work, but I don't expect the same aerobic response as HIIT.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
When you say HIIT you mean real HIIT (where I will end up in a lactic acid bath) or rather a training where I will sprint 5-10 times for example at maximum intensity but where I will rest enough to be able to perform another at maximum intensity?


Short working intervals of 12-20 seconds followed by only as much rest as needed to recover your wind and partial HR recovery. You won't be doing more than 10-12 minutes of this 15 tops, possibly less per the Tabata study. Intensity needs to be high enough to hit >120% VO2max or 90% of your max HR as rapidly as possible but only for a handful of seconds.

This is not muscle, tendon, or contraction speed conditioning but pure metabolic conditioning. It should not cause issues for your other resistance work.

Yes, lactate levels go up quite a bit - in this case it is a good thing. They'll drop back down rapidly enough. In some studies it was found that active recovery dropped lactate levels more quickly but also seemed to interfere with positive adaptations from HIIT - the effect was slight and other studies showed a slight benefit.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@quentin__bsbl
Sprinting with ample rest in between falls into AGT category. Indeed, you start the new sprint when you are rested.

There are different modalities. Some sprint for x seconds (and rest accordingly). Some sprint as long as they accelerate and stop after (and rest accordingly).

As far as the session goes, you can stop and call it a day as soon as your power output decrease.

Below is a good article with a protocol (sprints and push ups)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

quentin__bsbl

Level 3 Valued Member
Short working intervals of 12-20 seconds followed by only as much rest as needed to recover your wind and partial HR recovery. You won't be doing more than 10-12 minutes of this 15 tops, possibly less per the Tabata study. Intensity needs to be high enough to hit >120% VO2max or 90% of your max HR as rapidly as possible but only for a handful of seconds.

This is not muscle, tendon, or contraction speed conditioning but pure metabolic conditioning. It should not cause issues for your other resistance work.

Yes, lactate levels go up quite a bit - in this case it is a good thing. They'll drop back down rapidly enough. In some studies it was found that active recovery dropped lactate levels more quickly but also seemed to interfere with positive adaptations from HIIT - the effect was slight and other studies showed a slight benefit.
ok so i think i will do 8-10 sets of 150m sprints with enough rest needed. How many times a week can I do this?
 

quentin__bsbl

Level 3 Valued Member
Hello,

@quentin__bsbl
Sprinting with ample rest in between falls into AGT category. Indeed, you start the new sprint when you are rested.

There are different modalities. Some sprint for x seconds (and rest accordingly). Some sprint as long as they accelerate and stop after (and rest accordingly).

As far as the session goes, you can stop and call it a day as soon as your power output decrease.

Below is a good article with a protocol (sprints and push ups)

Kind regards,

Pet'
I think strong endurance can be a very good idea. But if I do that, do I take away my interval sprint sessions that I was doing in my running program (SFG)? and can I add "HIIT" type sessions with skipped squats or burpees for example in addition to his 2 Strong endurance sessions during the week?

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North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
ok so i think i will do 8-10 sets of 150m sprints with enough rest needed. How many times a week can I do this?

No more than 2x per week, and no more than 15 minutes per. If you have access to a heart rate monitor it would be helpful, you don't need it for every session. Check the out-put of one or two of your sprint intervals in the middle of your session - after 4 or 5 intervals. If HR isn't getting to 90% of your max (or higher) switch to a different activity. Also if your legs are smoked for other training.

Is difficult to go by rate of perceived exertion. When I did jumping backsquats with a sandbag I'd swear my HR had topped out after 20 seconds, but it was 40 BPM lower than my max.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@quentin__bsbl
I would use the strong endurance programme 2x a week. More could be too much assuming your training volume (running, rucking, RZ, S&S, FPP and some GTG).

This programme is not 'specialized', contrary to the SFG one because the latter is scaled for the distances (and times) you have in the test.

If you want to keep the Strong Endurance routine, I would suggest to see the results in the article. For instance, if your test implies a 1 mile run, then you can give it a go.

Stew Smith has protocoles closer than what you have in the SFG and have good results

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

quentin__bsbl

Level 3 Valued Member
Hello,

@quentin__bsbl
I would use the strong endurance programme 2x a week. More could be too much assuming your training volume (running, rucking, RZ, S&S, FPP and some GTG).

This programme is not 'specialized', contrary to the SFG one because the latter is scaled for the distances (and times) you have in the test.

If you want to keep the Strong Endurance routine, I would suggest to see the results in the article. For instance, if your test implies a 1 mile run, then you can give it a go.

Stew Smith has protocoles closer than what you have in the SFG and have good results

Kind regards,

Pet'
Alright I'll go find out about Stew Smith
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
This is a really good lactate threshold training session for running.

You will run at a fast pace for 3 minutes. Go for it but not an all out sprint pace.
A track is ideal.
Mark the distance covered anyway. Easier on a track, obviously.

Let's say you ran 800m. Rest 3 minutes. (6 min/mile pace)

Now run 1/2 that original distance covered in half the time.
And make your mark everytime.

That is 400m. Do 4 sets. 1.30 run time, 1 min rest.

Then 1/2 again.

So 200m. 4 sets. 45 secs. 30 secs rest.

Then 100m. 4 sets. 20 secs. 15 sec rest.

Make each distance. Start with longer rests if needed.

It is and should be very hard.

If it is too easy, you didn't run fast enough for your original test distance.
Go for it.

It is hard but recoverable because that is all you do and go home. Rest next day. Carry on with strength, or steady state.

There are many variations on a theme. This one is quite easy to adapt.

Starting with longer rests - down to 1:1 and then rest less than you work.

It does require effort, blood, sweat and tears. Doesn't look hard but it is.
 
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