Kettlebell Overhead Pressing Issues = Halos for Shoulders?

[Brak]

I just finished reading 5 different threads about halos, heavy halos, etc. Nearly every comment is in the spirit of it being a warm-up/mobility exercise done in the same session as other overhead work. "Don't go heavy", "a little heavy is ok, but why", "I'd rather do mace work", "I prefer armbars", the occasional "yeah I've gone heavier", and even "after using a heavier bell for halos, the lighter one was easy", which implies a strength increase in the shoulders from doing halos. These are all valid opinions in the context of those conversations, and for those people. The overall consensus seems to remain that halos are not for shoulder strength training because they are intended as a mobility exercise - pressing is simply a superior shoulder strength exercise.

...Not for me - I hope I'm not the only one with this issue.
I won't overhead press, my shoulders don't like it. Whether due to injury or physiology-of-me, just like how some people can't do dips because it is bad for their shoulders and others thrive on dips (incidentally, my shoulders are fine with dips, love em), I am not ok with overhead pressing. No matter how much I want to be, no matter how many times I re-hab my shoulders in preparation for overhead pressing and start with light weight, every time, it ends up being a problem I won't try again (said that more than once btw).

So what to do to hit full shoulders? For a while I did isolation stuff like lateral dumbell or banded raises in addition to my normal stuff shoulderish stuff like floor presses, dips, rows, etc. - I liked the results of these medial delt isolation additions but didn't like the exercises. So recently I added halos back in, not as a warm-up, but as a shoulder exercise in place of the lateral raises. My shoulders are not very strong so a 40# KB is a good halo workout of 4 sets at 11,10,9,8. Last couple reps of sets 2,3&4 are difficult but not grindy, they feel good, and it feels like the entire shoulder gets a good workout, as much or more than when I used to press a heavier KB.

So what I wonder is if this is just as silly for me as overhead pressing since it is also technically overhead (my issues occur higher than halo, near lockout which is why I think halos will be ok), but same as how overhead pressing is not a problem with low weight but becomes a problem as I progress, are halos also likely to be a problem later? Is there another shoulder strength movement you'd recommend for those that can't overhead press (can't be an uncommon issue)?

 

[Adachi]

so - I didn't ask and nobody told. I accidentally kept doing my halos with my main bell. I like 32kg halos the stretch is a little more intense.

I think it's kinda along the lines of controlled articulations. it can be useful, the effect is not zero on the stabilizers, and managing stability and tension down through my back, core, hips legs, and feet. now, if you want to grow your shoulders - I'm fairly certain they're not exactly the fast track to bigger shoulders. but 32kg and 40kg halos are not without their effect. my upper body is challenged by it, at least.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Damn, that’s some heavy halos!

Not sure about shoulders, but rack Carries for distance hit the upper back big time, which I find helps stabilise shoulders in pressing movements. It might help.

Don’t underestimate restricted thoracic mobility as in issue for pressing. I religiously do hangs, and thoracic mobility before every workout and have zero issues with pressing now, as well as halos. Not heavy, though I’m interested now

 

[jayjo]

I just finished reading 5 different threads about halos, heavy halos, etc. Nearly every comment is in the spirit of it being a warm-up/mobility exercise done in the same session as other overhead work. "Don't go heavy", "a little heavy is ok, but why", "I'd rather do mace work", "I prefer armbars", the occasional "yeah I've gone heavier", and even "after using a heavier bell for halos, the lighter one was easy", which implies a strength increase in the shoulders from doing halos. These are all valid opinions in the context of those conversations, and for those people. The overall consensus seems to remain that halos are not for shoulder strength training because they are intended as a mobility exercise - pressing is simply a superior shoulder strength exercise.

...Not for me - I hope I'm not the only one with this issue.
I won't overhead press, my shoulders don't like it. Whether due to injury or physiology-of-me, just like how some people can't do dips because it is bad for their shoulders and others thrive on dips (incidentally, my shoulders are fine with dips, love em), I am not ok with overhead pressing. No matter how much I want to be, no matter how many times I re-hab my shoulders in preparation for overhead pressing and start with light weight, every time, it ends up being a problem I won't try again (said that more than once btw).

So what to do to hit full shoulders? For a while I did isolation stuff like lateral dumbell or banded raises in addition to my normal stuff shoulderish stuff like floor presses, dips, rows, etc. - I liked the results of these medial delt isolation additions but didn't like the exercises. So recently I added halos back in, not as a warm-up, but as a shoulder exercise in place of the lateral raises. My shoulders are not very strong so a 40# KB is a good halo workout of 4 sets at 11,10,9,8. Last couple reps of sets 2,3&4 are difficult but not grindy, they feel good, and it feels like the entire shoulder gets a good workout, as much or more than when I used to press a heavier KB.

So what I wonder is if this is just as silly for me as overhead pressing since it is also technically overhead (my issues occur higher than halo, near lockout which is why I think halos will be ok), but same as how overhead pressing is not a problem with low weight but becomes a problem as I progress, are halos also likely to be a problem later? Is there another shoulder strength movement you'd recommend for those that can't overhead press (can't be an uncommon issue)?

2 ideas:
Heavy Club SHEILD CAST. Similar to a Halo, but its designed to be a meat & potatoes move. Check out Mark Wildman on youtube.
UPRIGHT ROW. Its great on shoulders and traps. You can do with a barbell or kettlebell. A lot of people say it causes shoulder impingement, but I have had a problem with them.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

Don’t underestimate restricted thoracic mobility as in issue for pressing. I religiously do hangs

+1 on that and some foam rolling on the back too. My shoulder used to be jacked up from years of not-so-smart training. I get some nagging in my shoulders from time to time and hanging helps work it out most of the time.

 

[GovernorSilver]

I hurt my right shoulder last year practicing pike pushups with elevated feet, and aggravated it and the other shoulder attempting double KB presses because I underestimated the importance of having the mobility to straighten both arms overhead.

So one solution for me was... don't do double KB presses until the necessary mobility is achieved.

Another was of course mobility work itself.

Earlier this year I got a steel spring chest expander. After several weeks of training with it, I gained the mobility and shoulder health to hang from a pullup bar with elevated scapulae... with no pain whatsoever. Pull-aparts seem to be part of the answer for me - whether vertical or horizontal. My routine was mostly taken from this video.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't do halos anymore.

Once I got my scapular mechanics down and, importantly, built up my upper back a lot, I didn't need them.

I found that OHP pain free is a lot about learning how to press with your backside.

 

[watchnerd]

+1 on that and some foam rolling on the back too. My shoulder used to be jacked up from years of not-so-smart training. I get some nagging in my shoulders from time to time and hanging helps work it out most of the time.

What I do instead of halos is front rack turnover drills with an empty barbell, which reinforces good thoracic extension.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

What I do instead of halos is front rack turnover drills with an empty barbell, which reinforces good thoracic extension.

Yeah I hardly ever do halos practically never. I hang from the pull up bar and do some prying against the bar and begin my overhead training. Maybe some overhead squats with a pvc pipe and im good to go.

 

[bluejeff]

Is there another shoulder strength movement you'd recommend for those that can't overhead press (can't be an uncommon issue)?

Do you have access to a barbell? Do landmine presses. If you own a barbell, get a viking attachment to do bilateral work. Or if your gym has one, use it.

Also, I know you explicitly stated:

No matter how much I want to be, no matter how many times I re-hab my shoulders in preparation for overhead pressing and start with light weight, every time, it ends up being a problem I won't try again (said that more than once btw).

But I would be curious to see what you've tried. The rehab world is full of "do X for bulletproof shoudlers" and boatloads of resistance band drills, etc, yet there are people all over the place like yourself for which "nothing seems to work." I don't buy that, except in cases which are rarer than we are led to believe. I think the heart of it is biomechanics, which a good 80-90% of folks seem to have, imo, a limited understanding of.

 

[Conor]

How are get-ups for you? I’ve always found those to be a great movement for building shoulder strength and mobility. The floor press is much more like a bench, and if you work through them with lighter weights that would hopefully be a pain-free way to build towards OHPing

 

[BillSteamshovel]

I gained the mobility and shoulder health to hang from a pullup bar with elevated scapulae.

Am not sure what that means, Is that the same as a scapular pullup or something completely different ?

Thanks for the chest expander video, that was very interesting.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Brak, for some people, heavy halos are OK. 32 kg is my half-bodyweight press, and I used to do halos with the same weight. I would caution you - work up slowly, stop at any indication of problems. In my own case - this was years ago - I asked people who knew more than me if they thought heavy halos were OK for me, and they said yes, so I did them.

One suggestion for you - take a light bell, do getups with it, then add some presses at each of the various stopping points in the getup. IOW, roll over to get the bell, press it to arms length with one hand. Come up to your elbow, lower bell and press back up again. Come up to your hand, lower bell and press back up again. etc.

32kg and 40kg halos are not without their effect. my upper body is challenged by it, at least.

I can't imagine a 40 kg halo - good for you for being able to do that - impressive!

I found that OHP pain free is a lot about learning how to press with your backside.

Say more about this, please.

Am not sure what that means, Is that the same as a scapular pullup or something completely different ?

To me it suggests unpacking the shoulders, i.e., a fully dead hang.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

Say more about this, please.

It feels like I'm initiating the push with my lats and other back muscles that insert around my arm pit.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Am not sure what that means, Is that the same as a scapular pullup or something completely different ?

Thanks for the chest expander video, that was very interesting.

you're welcome!

I meant to begin and end every rep of a pullup from a dead hang - hence elevated scapulae. I used to practice pullups with depressed - instead of elevated - scapulae because dead hang irritated my shoulders.

 

[Simon L]

I like heavy halos. Like Adachi, I increased my s&s warmup weight to match my working weight. As it gets heavier it requires full body tension much like the press. But I find it most helpful to focus on the lat keeping the shoulder attached to the body and leading the movement, which, like watchnerd says, is also key to a strong press. So I think it works well as an assistance move to the press.

It’s essentially the same movement pattern as a mace 360 or a club shield cast but with a much shorter lever allowing it to be loaded significantly heavier. Practicing heavier halos first did seem to make learning those moves easier and allow me work heavier from the get go.

To answer the initial question. It’s a good exercise that will likely benefit your shoulders but it’s not a substitute for the press. As others have said it would be better to find out what the issue is you’re having with the press. Then address those issues as that will likely benefit you in many ways.

Can you say more about this issue? You say it occurs near lockout. Do have enough shoulder flexion to get your arm overhead without compensations in the lower back? Do you struggle to lock out the elbow? Is it shoulder impingement? Do your scapular move well and slide round the rib cage?

 

[Brak]

Do you have access to a barbell?

...I would be curious to see what you've tried. "nothing seems to work." I don't buy that...

No access to barbell. Well, I find that even when n=1, day to day life is full of confounders. Mostly in the past when my shoulder is messed up, I try to stop doing whatever it is that I thought might have caused the problem this time. A newbie feeding me a rear hook incorrectly so I had to reach? OHP? Face pulls with too much weight? Earlier this year I wasn't doing any overhead pressing, but was kickboxing regularly and doing mace 10/2s and 360s, stopped the mace work and shoulders improved. Years ago, my chiropractor suggested crossover symmetry band work and that has helped a lot. As specificity would dictate, I'm now better at doing crossover symmetry than I was when I started - heavier bands, and they feel good...this is my warmup at least 2 days a week.

How are get-ups for you?

Get-ups, I know I should be doing them. How do I know? Because I'm terrible at them and hate them in every way. As I transition to the more overhead positions, I feel the clicking like the shoulder might come out of joint and just know it's either me doing something wrong or just my impingement getting in the way so while I'm working through minor adjustments to angles of the working shoulder to prevent an injury I am also trying to think about what is going on with the arm I'm posting ups on, where my leg is supposed to be, and eventually say, this sucks, I'd rather be doing anything else.

for some people, heavy halos are OK. ...they said yes, so I did them.

One suggestion for you - take a light bell, do getups with it, then add some presses at each of the various stopping points in the getup.

Good to know Halos are "OK", and I hear ya on building them (or anything else) up slowly. I'm done with 4-6 week cycles where the weight must increase every workout because of progressive overload. "OK" is a decent consensus I suppose. And the amount of posts suggesting things other than halos confirms their B status.

See answer above for how I feel about getups. But if you say so... I'll try it today and if I like it better than I have on the past, I'll swap it into the halo slot to see how it goes, it could be what I need to get some confidence overhead.

I can't imagine a 40 kg halo - impressive!

-S-

Agreed - @Adachi must be heeuge!

To answer the initial question. It’s a good exercise that will likely benefit your shoulders but it’s not a substitute for the press. As others have said it would be better to find out what the issue is you’re having with the press. Then address those issues as that will likely benefit you in many ways.

Can you say more about this issue? You say it occurs near lockout. Do have enough shoulder flexion to get your arm overhead without compensations in the lower back? Do you struggle to lock out the elbow? Is it shoulder impingement? Do your scapular move well and slide round the rib cage?

Again, confirmation halos are a good movement, but not a substitute for a press. OK thx

I have what seems to be good mobility, but as they say, the dentist who works on his own teeth has a fool for a patient. If anything scapulae is too mobile leading to poor posture if I'm lazy. I can get up to full lockout but depending on the angle of the elbow there is a click (impingement?) near the top. If I go straight up from the rack, without the elbow rotating outward, it is better. But the heavier the bell, the more my elbow needs to go out to the side to get the bell up. Also, I almost always tend to resort to push pressing, so it is possible I was always just too hungry to use big boy bells and need to go lighter for longer.

 

[Adachi]

I can't imagine a 40 kg halo - good for you for being able to do that - impressive!

Agreed - @Adachi must be heeuge!

Yeah I'm a bigger guy, and I've spent several cycles just focusing on the kettlebell press. Id probably have to work back up to it but my peak press is at 2L/3R 40kg. And that was after practicing the KBSF C&J plan with 32kg for a couple months or so the jerk does improve the shoulders. I'm 5'10" at 255 lbs today. Which is about 116 kg, so 40kg is currently around 30% BW for me.

The counterweight I can offer to the Kettlebells definitely plays it's role in what weights I can negotiate with. And the 40kg halo is something that I'd only do for a single, and it's not quite as strict or as pretty as using the 32kg bell for sure.

I've used the half halo many times to get the 40kg up at the base of my neck for loaded movement. And as my medial depts have been hinting at me the last couple months, slow simple getups have been nudging their size up; especially the past several weeks. A heavy getup or two might help with building the shoulders a bit if you're having trouble with finding an agreeable press.

 

[Simon L]

i have what seems to be good mobility, but as they say, the dentist who works on his own teeth has a fool for a patient. If anything scapulae is too mobile leading to poor posture if I'm lazy. I can get up to full lockout but depending on the angle of the elbow there is a click (impingement?) near the top. If I go straight up from the rack, without the elbow rotating outward, it is better. But the heavier the bell, the more my elbow needs to go out to the side to get the bell up. Also, I almost always tend to resort to push pressing, so it is possible I was always just too hungry to use big boy bells and need to go lighter for longer.

I don’t think scapular really can be too mobile, perhaps what you’re referring to is lack of stability in the scapular?

From what you’re saying I wonder if there is an impingement issue coming from a lack of proper scapular movement. People have spent a lot of time bench pressing - where the scapular are immobilised - can lose proper scapulohumeral rhythm causing impingement when working overhead. https://www.physio-pedia.com/Scapulohumeral_Rhythm#:~:text=physiotherapist%20serving%20•-,Introduction,by%20Codman%20in%20the%201930s.&text=This%20interaction%20is%20important%20for%20the%20optimal%20function%20of%20the%20shoulder. I wonder if the elbow movement you talk about is related to this?

 

[bluejeff]

Years ago, my chiropractor suggested crossover symmetry band work and that has helped a lot. As specificity would dictate, I'm now better at doing crossover symmetry than I was when I started - heavier bands, and they feel good...this is my warmup at least 2 days a week.

Exactly. You want to get better at overhead pressing, not better at doing band exercises.

If you spend all your time squeezing your upper back, squeezing your shoulder blades together, you are telling them to move the opposite direction you want them to go when you reach forward and/or overhead.

The scapula have to move smoothly and freely for the shoulder to work well. To do that they have to move on a congruent surface, the ribcage! If you have compressed areas of the ribcage they won’t move well, and they won’t have a stable surface to glide on. Imo the fitness industry at large has over corrected “kyphosis” and now people are out there with a flat posterior ribcage. The scapula are concave. They need something convex to move on. In trying to correct one problem they have created a different one.

For more info:

What You Need To Know To Fix Shoulders: Scapulohumeral Rhythm

www.conorharris.com

He has a good YouTube channel and blog. Also check out Zac Cupples.