I’d definitely suggest working with light get-ups. I followed the Simple and Sinister progression for my first year of kettlebell and it did wonders for my shoulder strength while promoting mobility. Don’t worry too much about the weight, keep it light, maybe just a couple as a warm up. If you want to post a video I’m sure you’d get good feedback on whether or not the shoulder is going to prevent you from doing them correctly.
Thx - another vote for get-ups
That is clearly important, thanks for the link, I can't see or measure my scapula movement, but it is safe to assume that what bluejeff said is playing a factor in whether or not my Scapulohumeral Rhythm angle is compromised.
Awesome feedback, thank you, I'll check all that out.Exactly. You want to get better at overhead pressing, not better at doing band exercises.
If you spend all your time squeezing your upper back, squeezing your shoulder blades together, you are telling them to move the opposite direction you want them to go when you reach forward and/or overhead.
For more info:
What You Need To Know To Fix Shoulders: Scapulohumeral Rhythm
www.conorharris.com
He has a good YouTube channel and blog. Also check out Zac Cupples.
Another vote for get-ups.
Exactly. You want to get better at overhead pressing, not better at doing band exercises.
If you spend all your time squeezing your upper back, squeezing your shoulder blades together, you are telling them to move the opposite direction you want them to go when you reach forward and/or overhead.
The scapula have to move smoothly and freely for the shoulder to work well. To do that they have to move on a congruent surface, the ribcage! If you have compressed areas of the ribcage they won’t move well, and they won’t have a stable surface to glide on. Imo the fitness industry at large has over corrected “kyphosis” and now people are out there with a flat posterior ribcage. The scapula are concave. They need something convex to move on. In trying to correct one problem they have created a different one.
For more info:
What You Need To Know To Fix Shoulders: Scapulohumeral Rhythm
He has a good YouTube channel and blog. Also check out Zac Cupples.
That’s good. You’ve also been an overhead athletes for decades. Regardless, the OP seems to have tried it, or something similar, to no effect. So I suggested another approach
I am regularly surprised that t-spine mobility even requires mentioning when it comes to shoulder mobility and health but here we are...
I was thinking about this as I did it today, scaption felt good and the final movement of the routine is loaded hands overhead. To be clear, the loading is more horizontal, so from a specificity purists standpoint, might not be preparing me for pressing as well as something else could. I do feel that it helped heal my shoulders a couple years ago and make them strong enough to start training again when they were really messed up a few years ago.
FWIW I'm not trying to say the Crossover symmetry stuff isn't good, or that it's bad. I've used variations of all that stuff before. Imo it probably works because you're getting the person to move their shoulder blades with repect to their torso. That said, the shoulder blades still have to move on something, and if that something isn't shaped in a way that "fits" them, they won't move as well, and they won't have a stable surface to find purchase on. I guess I'm just used to seeing the focus being on the upper back, meaning, "the area between the shoulder blades." I still stand by the statement that over -focusing on that will compress that area. That area needs to be widened and opened up for the scaps to move well.
chineseweightlifting.com
https://medium.com/in-fitness-and-in-health/1-bodyweight-move-for-a-bigger-kettlebell-military-press-957e3d629b40I'd ping @AleksSalkin or send him an email. I think his recent book/program uses rings to build up and repair shoulders/thoracic areas.
FWIW I'm not trying to say the Crossover symmetry stuff isn't good, or that it's bad. I've used variations of all that stuff before. Imo it probably works because you're getting the person to move their shoulder blades with repect to their torso. That said, the shoulder blades still have to move on something, and if that something isn't shaped in a way that "fits" them, they won't move as well, and they won't have a stable surface to find purchase on. I guess I'm just used to seeing the focus being on the upper back, meaning, "the area between the shoulder blades." I still stand by the statement that over -focusing on that will compress that area. That area needs to be widened and opened up for the scaps to move well.
I also had a thought in general about "overhead positions." The overhead position in a barbell snatch is significantly different from something like a handstand, which is different from a unilateral press (like a KB press). From what I can tell, Oly lifters end up with something of a "head forward" position, which puts the bar kind of "behind" their head/neck. So it would make sense in that context that the upper back does more work.
This shoulder position. . .
View attachment 23394
Is a lot different than this shoulder position (I searched for "kettlebell press" and this image of Aleks came up). . .
View attachment 23395
The Oly lifter is more internally rotated (intentionally so, according to the article), while Aleks is more externally rotated. The internally rotated position is going to involve the upper back more. From what I've seen, a double KB overhead press usually ends up in a more externally rotated position as well. Look at photos of people doing kettlebell snatches and you will see a similar position to that of the Oly style.
The point here is that the OP has overhead position issues, and the way he does his overhead work probably plays a role in how/why it hasn't seemed to work out for him. @Brak if you are up for it, a video of your form would certainly be helpful. Please don't feel pressured, however.
I've posted this article before. It's worthwhile to note the emphasis on the ribcage throughout it.
How to Push Press | Ma Strength
Learn how to push press Chinese weightlifters with help from this push press guide from Ma Strength! Learn now!
And for reference, the image of Aleks is from his Medium article, " #1 Bodyweight move for a bigger kettlebell military press." For some reason no amount of copy-pasting made the link copy right
IMO it's not ballet or artistic diving, it does not always have to be pretty especially when the weight gets serious.
For the rest of the replies, If you don't tolerate presses, why press? Dont try to fit a square peg into a round hole. There's no magic movement you have to do.
Opposite for me, wherever/whyever the impingement is happening, it is at the top and the more overhead & heavy, the more it impinges (or used to). I can incline press all day without issue and found myself trying to finish an overhead press with my torso behind the bell. I've also seen videos of people doing it this way, not to the extent I'm describing for illustration's sake, but it makes the movement look...shorter when they do it the way I'm describing - like the bell isn't going up as high even though there is full extension at the elbow.
I appreciate the no-nonsense reply not focused on overhead pressing being the best (seemingly only) way to work shoulders. I did not intend for this conversation to revert to what seems to be a common theme here. "I can't press, help me press"...reply: "must be a mobility issue, let's fix that". I can't rule mobility out, because I've not seen an expert about it, and maybe there is some truth to everyone being able to improve mobility with focused effort. But I can easily get my hand up overhead, internally, externally rotate, etc. To me the problem seems to be a slight impingement of some kind sometimes (at some angles almost a click that I can feel) that doesn't hurt immediately, but as weights and or volume increase with repetition, comes inflammation, more clicking, and pain.
I talked about doing DB/band laterals and halos. Someone else mentioned upright rows that while infamous for causing impingement, don't cause me issues, and using a KB seems to lessen the potential for impingement compared to a close grip on a BB. I even tried low lumberjack presses for a while, but figured the lower I kept them, the more similar they were to halos, I might as well just do halos. Do you have any other suggestions/ideas for shoulder movements that give the same development as presses without being up overhead?