Plan Strong - Programming Squats and Deadlifts

[Carter0105]

Hey everyone, im hoping someone who has done plan strong could help clear up some confusion, I'm currently prepping for SFL, I'm using the programming methods I learned from Plan strong. My goal is to use it to build up my X2 bodyweight deadlift. I notice Deadlift is partnered with Squats in there own category together, I know it says And/or, but reading through the manual the closest I can get to a explanation of what that means is Use one of them as a SV (Specialised variation) and dedicate a % of the NL to it.

If i'm right in understanding this you would have let's say 300 NL, so 20% of that would be 60 NL for squats and leave you 240 NL for the deadlift. That doesn't seem like enough Squats to me, I couldn't give away more of the deadlift as I need them reps to get my deadlift up to scratch, I can't not include the squats as tbh I get problems with my knees when I just do Deadlift Plan strong alone, I need to hit both movement patterns. Im also training for my snatch test, so there's a lot of Hinge at the moment, so I would like to figure out if its ok to have both deadlift and squat in its own programme, or do I need to use the overall NL of for them both and divide them by %. Im currently following template 787A, I have no idea how to split that for both, do I just do a programme of each exercise with this template or split? I know its kinda the same questions but just wanted to check.

I also see a lot about using 6 lifts per session, im guessing 1 PS lift and then 5 other lifts that support your goals in other training methods?

I seem to have all the other SFL requirements met 4 months out, just really need to figure this out as I can't finish the plan until I know.


Many thanks in advance everyone

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

Hey everyone, im hoping someone who has done plan strong could help clear up some confusion, I'm currently prepping for SFL, I'm using the programming methods I learned from Plan strong. My goal is to use it to build up my X2 bodyweight deadlift. I notice Deadlift is partnered with Squats in there own category together, I know it says And/or, but reading through the manual the closest I can get to a explanation of what that means is Use one of them as a SV (Specialised variation) and dedicate a % of the NL to it.

If i'm right in understanding this you would have let's say 300 NL, so 20% of that would be 60 NL for squats and leave you 240 NL for the deadlift. That doesn't seem like enough Squats to me, I couldn't give away more of the deadlift as I need them reps to get my deadlift up to scratch, I can't not include the squats as tbh I get problems with my knees when I just do Deadlift Plan strong alone, I need to hit both movement patterns. Im also training for my snatch test, so there's a lot of Hinge at the moment, so I would like to figure out if its ok to have both deadlift and squat in its own programme, or do I need to use the overall NL of for them both and divide them by %. Im currently following template 787A, I have no idea how to split that for both, do I just do a programme of each exercise with this template or split? I know its kinda the same questions but just wanted to check.

I also see a lot about using 6 lifts per session, im guessing 1 PS lift and then 5 other lifts that support your goals in other training methods?

I seem to have all the other SFL requirements met 4 months out, just really need to figure this out as I can't finish the plan until I know.


Many thanks in advance everyone

I would email customplan@strongfirst.com and see if they can get you connected with someone to answer your specific questions. I’ve never taken the Plan Strong seminar but I have used the custom plan team to build me some very good plans. They planned me a plan that had deadlift Zercher and military press all programmed. I’m dumb to the 300nl thing but each lift had light medium heavy days with a lot of volume. It may help you to purchase their plan to see what they have done to get an idea of how to build your own. Hopefully someone can help you with you questions though. I think the email approach might get you an answer faster though.

 

[Carter0105]

Thanks Luis, I dont need a plan wrote tbh, I just need to understand the manual better, Ive taken plan strong and can write programmes myself, I just can't make clear of this one detail about mixing squats and deadlift, hopefully someone can shed some light, thanks though pal.

 

[silveraw]

The only strength test is the bench and deadlift. So no need to maintain a heavy squat if SFL is the only goal.
Also there is some fine print that the deadlift maxes out at 450lbs. So you might not need to actually get double bodyweight deadlift.

Don't know if that helps simplify the plan strong programming process. I've only ever really done more traditional american cycling really.

 

[Carter0105]

It's not that im looking to increase strength with squats, just would like to keep skill up, plus it helps me avoid knee pain when im doing so much hinge and no knee dominant exercises. Thanks for your input though silveraw

 

[Steve Freides]

The only strength test is the bench and deadlift. So no need to maintain a heavy squat if SFL is the only goal.
Also there is some fine print that the deadlift maxes out at 450lbs. So you might not need to actually get double bodyweight deadlift.

Don't know if that helps simplify the plan strong programming process. I've only ever really done more traditional american cycling really.

SFL Barbell Certification Requirements | StrongFirst

The Instructor candidates must pass the following tests: Teaching safely and effectively. Strength test. Technique test. Candidates have a choice of taking the strength and technique test during the Certification or submitting a video up to 6 months after the end of the Certification. If you are...

www.strongfirst.com

There are weight minimums for both the strength test, which is one rep, and for the technique tests, which have lower required weights (but you still need to use the weights listed at the link above). For open age men, it's 5 reps in the SQ using bodyweight on the bar - shouldn't be hard for most people, I know.

-S-

 

[silveraw]

SFL Barbell Certification Requirements | StrongFirst

The Instructor candidates must pass the following tests: Teaching safely and effectively. Strength test. Technique test. Candidates have a choice of taking the strength and technique test during the Certification or submitting a video up to 6 months after the end of the Certification. If you are...

www.strongfirst.com

There are weight minimums for both the strength test, which is one rep, and for the technique tests, which have lower required weights (but you still need to use the weights listed at the link above). For open age men, it's 5 reps in the SQ using bodyweight on the bar - shouldn't be hard for most people, I know.

-S-

Thanks, I missed that when I skimmed through before.

 

[Anna C]

There are weight minimums for both the strength test, which is one rep, and for the technique tests, which have lower required weights (but you still need to use the weights listed at the link above). For open age men, it's 5 reps in the SQ using bodyweight on the bar - shouldn't be hard for most people, I know.

When I assisted Fabio at The Dome for SFL in April this year, most people were able to do the squat technique test with the required reps without a problem, but quite a few missed the overhead press technique test for 5 reps. As far as the 1RM strength tests, there were a few misses on both the deadlift and the bench press. Some were able to try again after the teaching segment on that lift and did make it then. That would be up to the Master SFG leading the event.

I seem to have all the other SFL requirements met 4 months out, just really need to figure this out as I can't finish the plan until I know.

A tip for you... The strength tests are done on Day 1 for those who are ready (most do try), but the conditions may be different than what you are used to. It may depend on who is teaching (are you doing Dec in Dallas with Master SFG Jason Marshall?), but with Fabio we did all the tests one after another, lightest to heaviest, after everyone warmed up. Impact was that the heavies had to wait, without additional warm-up lifts, and do theirs somewhat "cold" by the time their turn came around. Likely it would be OK to take another warm-up or two in the background if this occurs, but it didn't seem to occur to most to do that. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Carter0105]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, I really appreciate it. My main question is to do with Plan strong really, its understanding the sharing of load or not sharing of load with Deadlifts and squats in the same programme block, its just unclear in the manual. Really appreciate the insight into SFL though, I think im good to go on all the tests except the Deadlift, hence the need to know the programming question as would like to just train squat alongside, if I ditch squats and just do deadlifts, for me it leads to knee pain, so just trying to figure it out so can write the best programme.

 

[Fabio Zonin]

Hey everyone, im hoping someone who has done plan strong could help clear up some confusion, I'm currently prepping for SFL, I'm using the programming methods I learned from Plan strong. My goal is to use it to build up my X2 bodyweight deadlift. I notice Deadlift is partnered with Squats in there own category together, I know it says And/or, but reading through the manual the closest I can get to a explanation of what that means is Use one of them as a SV (Specialised variation) and dedicate a % of the NL to it.

If i'm right in understanding this you would have let's say 300 NL, so 20% of that would be 60 NL for squats and leave you 240 NL for the deadlift. That doesn't seem like enough Squats to me, I couldn't give away more of the deadlift as I need them reps to get my deadlift up to scratch, I can't not include the squats as tbh I get problems with my knees when I just do Deadlift Plan strong alone, I need to hit both movement patterns. Im also training for my snatch test, so there's a lot of Hinge at the moment, so I would like to figure out if its ok to have both deadlift and squat in its own programme, or do I need to use the overall NL of for them both and divide them by %. Im currently following template 787A, I have no idea how to split that for both, do I just do a programme of each exercise with this template or split? I know its kinda the same questions but just wanted to check.

You may use the BSQ as a SV exercise for the DL or vice versa, but you don't necessarily have to do it. You can assign individual monthly NLs and plan them separately. The overall lower body volume will be higher than if you consider one SV of the other, but as long as you can keep up with it, you are good. In my own training I always plan the BSQ and the DL separately and in some cases I assigned up to NL=400 to both in the same plan, for a total of NL=800. Of course it was a PS50 plan and also I can tolerate very high volumes, hence I'm not suggesting you should use such high volumes in your plan, but just saying that it is possible.

That said, since in my understanding in your case you have to increase your 1RM strength in the DL (the SFL test requires one rep with 2x bodyweight) and maintain strength and good technique in your BSQ (the SFL test requires 5 reps with your bodyweight), you may decide to design a PS plan for the DL and simply keep practicing the BSQ. For instance, you may practice your BSQ 1-2 times/week, with a constant and manageable weight, e.g. 5/3-5 at an RPE=6/RIR=4. This of course may work only if you already own 5 reps with your bodyweight, otherwise things change, as you need to strengthen your BSQ also.

I hope this helps.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Hey everyone, im hoping someone who has done plan strong could help clear up some confusion, I'm currently prepping for SFL, I'm using the programming methods I learned from Plan strong. My goal is to use it to build up my X2 bodyweight deadlift. I notice Deadlift is partnered with Squats in there own category together, I know it says And/or, but reading through the manual the closest I can get to a explanation of what that means is Use one of them as a SV (Specialised variation) and dedicate a % of the NL to it.

If i'm right in understanding this you would have let's say 300 NL, so 20% of that would be 60 NL for squats and leave you 240 NL for the deadlift. That doesn't seem like enough Squats to me, I couldn't give away more of the deadlift as I need them reps to get my deadlift up to scratch, I can't not include the squats as tbh I get problems with my knees when I just do Deadlift Plan strong alone, I need to hit both movement patterns. Im also training for my snatch test, so there's a lot of Hinge at the moment, so I would like to figure out if its ok to have both deadlift and squat in its own programme, or do I need to use the overall NL of for them both and divide them by %. Im currently following template 787A, I have no idea how to split that for both, do I just do a programme of each exercise with this template or split? I know its kinda the same questions but just wanted to check.

I also see a lot about using 6 lifts per session, im guessing 1 PS lift and then 5 other lifts that support your goals in other training methods?

I seem to have all the other SFL requirements met 4 months out, just really need to figure this out as I can't finish the plan until I know.


Many thanks in advance everyone

For disclosure, I haven't taken PA or BS yet but have done some PS related courses and have both the minimalist and maximum products of built strong..

For discussion, when is your SFL?

What numbers do you have to hit vs where you're at now

 

[Boris Bachmann]

What is an NL?

 

[Adachi]

What is an NL?

It's Number of Lifts.
A Total accounting of reps to be divided amongst sessions and sets.

 

[Carter0105]

You may use the BSQ as a SV exercise for the DL or vice versa, but you don't necessarily have to do it. You can assign individual monthly NLs and plan them separately. The overall lower body volume will be higher than if you consider one SV of the other, but as long as you can keep up with it, you are good. In my own training I always plan the BSQ and the DL separately and in some cases I assigned up to NL=400 to both in the same plan, for a total of NL=800. Of course it was a PS50 plan and also I can tolerate very high volumes, hence I'm not suggesting you should use such high volumes in your plan, but just saying that it is possible.

That said, since in my understanding in your case you have to increase your 1RM strength in the DL (the SFL test requires one rep with 2x bodyweight) and maintain strength and good technique in your BSQ (the SFL test requires 5 reps with your bodyweight), you may decide to design a PS plan for the DL and simply keep practicing the BSQ. For instance, you may practice your BSQ 1-2 times/week, with a constant and manageable weight, e.g. 5/3-5 at an RPE=6/RIR=4. This of course may work only if you already own 5 reps with your bodyweight, otherwise things change, as you need to strengthen your BSQ also.

I hope this helps.

This is exactly the answer I was looking for Fabio, thanks so much for taking the time out to give this in depth answer, my back squat is fine for strength, Im currently following PS50 787A template, so dont really have the volume to share, which is why I searched the manual for the answer. Looking forward to seeing you again Fabio in programming demystified and your taking my SFL in November in the UK, thanks for the help pal.

For disclosure, I haven't taken PA or BS yet but have done some PS related courses and have both the minimalist and maximum products of built strong..

For discussion, when is your SFL?

What numbers do you have to hit vs where you're at now

My SFL is November 26th, im also trying to recert the SFG 1, I haven't been able to snatch for one reason or another the past 2 years, durning my first SFG I was lighter and had the 20kg, now ive done things like SFB gained muscle and the 24kg without snatching for 2 years has been a real eyeopener lol, its really pushed my programming planning, I had quite a few things to work on.

Currently im doing
Day 1 : PS50 deadlifts / KB FRSQ/ KB military press
Day 2 : PS50 Deadlifts heavy day / Medium bench press 3 x 5
Day 3 : Light cardio on bike 30 mins / Flexible steel
Day 4 : Snatches, practice form in streaks of 10-15, started today using the 28 kg for 5 on this.
Day 5 : Flexible steel / Light cardio
Day 6 : Snatches 14 EMOM ( Currently ) 8 minutes
Day 7: Rest

Little other bits like Arm bars, Get ups, halos etc in there too, Im hoping I can pass SFG on the all Terrain conditioning course 23rd Sept and focus on SFL then, everything is pretty much there except the DL, If I dont pass SFG 23rd Sept, I have another recert chance on Programming Demystified 3 weeks later if im not ready durning ATC, then worst case I do it at SFL, not ideal though juggling these goals til November though

 

[silveraw]

It's Number of Lifts.
A Total accounting of reps to be divided amongst sessions and sets.

I'm assuming they are lifts done over a certain threshold like 70% 1RM?

 

[Adachi]

I'm assuming they are lifts done over a certain threshold like 70% 1RM?

The particular intensity is dictated by the design of the program. Generally most of the programming I'm seeing Ramps up from 65% 1RM to around 85% 1RM. But different programs will dictate their own specific intensity in conjunction with changes in volume, using NL to help ease some calculations about volume.

 

[Steve Freides]

I'm assuming they are lifts done over a certain threshold like 70% 1RM?

There are two basic templates in PlanStrong, one in which you do the math for everything 70% and over, and another where you do the math for everything 50% and over. You'll see references to PS70 and PS50 in some of the earlier posts in this thread.

PlanStrong is a "top down" approach. The "top" is which lifts you choose and the number of each (NL = Number of Lifts) you're going to do for a 4-week block as well as a goal for average intensity, a percentage of 1RM. From there you work down into planning out the details of what you'll do in each of your 4 weeks, and then further down into what you'll do on each day, and from there down to the weights used, and reps and sets with those weights.

And there are then "big picture" things, if you'll forgive a turn of a phrase, to consider like how what you do in one 4-week block compares to the next, how to address a 4-week block that leads up to a test or competition, how you handle assistance/accessory work, and so on. The PlanStrong seminar discusses all of these things - and more! - and the manual provides many examples.

It's really quite thorough. If you want to see some of in action, there are articles on this website that would be of interest. E.g., @John Spezzano wrote an article that uses, if memory serves, a single weight but varies the volume according to PS guidelines. Pavel also wrote a program wherein you add variety to S&S by varying the volume by the month, week, and day - again if memory serves, both contain multiple months of programming. (If anyone wants to give links to these articles, that would be great.) If you read those articles, imagine adding the same kind of thinking to not only volume, but intensity (% of 1RM) as well, and imagine adding multiple weights into the mix, and you'll have some idea of what PlanStrong programming looks like.

Last but certainly not least, although all the above is science, it is also very much an art.

@Fabio Zonin, please correct anything above as needed.

-S-

 

[Bauer]

There are two basic templates in PlanStrong, one in which you do the math for everything 70% and over, and another where you do the math for everything 50% and over. You'll see references to PS70 and PS50 in some of the earlier posts in this thread.

PlanStrong is a "top down" approach. The "top" is which lifts you choose and the number of each (NL = Number of Lifts) you're going to do for a 4-week block as well as a goal for average intensity, a percentage of 1RM. From there you work down into planning out the details of what you'll do in each of your 4 weeks, and then further down into what you'll do on each day, and from there down to the weights used, and reps and sets with those weights.

And there are then "big picture" things, if you'll forgive a turn of a phrase, to consider like how what you do in one 4-week block compares to the next, how to address a 4-week block that leads up to a test or competition, how you handle assistance/accessory work, and so on. The PlanStrong seminar discusses all of these things - and more! - and the manual provides many examples.

It's really quite thorough. If you want to see some of in action, there are articles on this website that would be of interest. E.g., @John Spezzano wrote an article that uses, if memory serves, a single weight but varies the volume according to PS guidelines. Pavel also wrote a program wherein you add variety to S&S by varying the volume by the month, week, and day - again if memory serves, both contain multiple months of programming. (If anyone wants to give links to these articles, that would be great.) If you read those articles, imagine adding the same kind of thinking to not only volume, but intensity (% of 1RM) as well, and imagine adding multiple weights into the mix, and you'll have some idea of what PlanStrong programming looks like.

Last but certainly not least, although all the above is science, it is also very much an art.

@Fabio Zonin, please correct anything above as needed.

-S-

Nice overview!

I have linked a few of those plans in this post:

Yeah, that could be done when simplifying. I think SF will probably provide us with more options in the future, as things are always evolving.

For those that want made-for-you plans, StrongFirst offers plenty of free PlanStrong plans. As they are based on 1RM they can be used with barbells quite easily. And some products like Ladders Reloaded (Milo Magazine) or Victorious offer plans as well.

However, the RM-ranges in Built Strong are much more user friendly, especially for KB users. That would be cool for PS too

Here are a few PlanStrong plans:

Stop Fearing Heavy Weights | StrongFirst

For decades I have heard about thousands of training related products that claimed to work magic for athletes, oftentimes supported by “abstracts” of research and clinical studies. But very few of them were ever mentioned again just a couple of years later. Similarly, the internet and social...

www.strongfirst.com

The 1TRM EV PS Program: Escalating Volume in the Plan Strong Style | StrongFirst

The 1TRM EV PS program is an advanced variation of the 5TRM Back Squat Program, based on the 1TRM and with Plan Strong inspired volume progression.

www.strongfirst.com

The 5TRM Back Squat Program | StrongFirst

Sometimes it is not appropriate to measure 1RM, but what if your back squat program is based off one? Enter the 5TRM - your five technically perfect rep max.

www.strongfirst.com

A Science-Based Plan to Prepare You for the SFG Level I and SFG Level II | StrongFirst

This prep guide for the SFG Level I and/or SFG Level II builds conditioning and strength using Pavel’s latest research. It is a science-based plan.

www.strongfirst.com

Waves of Strength: Soviet-Style Periodization - Breaking Muscle

Last week I covered a simple endurance program that creates an anabolic environment to prime you for strength training. This week we’ll cover the most powerful strength program I have used. Russel Dunning and his athletes used this program with great success in attempting the StrongFirst Level...

breakingmuscle.com

This one is quite enlightening, too:

From Simple to Sinister: Waving Volume on S&S | StrongFirst

The "From Simple to Sinister" program takes the original Simple & Sinister and applies proven Soviet techniques of waving volume. Here's how to do it.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Steve Freides]

Here's the article I mentioned:

Get Stronger with One Kettlebell | StrongFirst

In January 2021 I led the programming section at an SFG Level I certification. I wanted the attendees to grasp some programming concepts and be able to create an effective program with just one weight. So, I decided to build on what I had heard Fabio Zonin, StrongFirst Certified Master...

www.strongfirst.com

by John Spezzano.

-S-

 

[Mark Limbaga]

This is exactly the answer I was looking for Fabio, thanks so much for taking the time out to give this in depth answer, my back squat is fine for strength, Im currently following PS50 787A template, so dont really have the volume to share, which is why I searched the manual for the answer. Looking forward to seeing you again Fabio in programming demystified and your taking my SFL in November in the UK, thanks for the help pal.

My SFL is November 26th, im also trying to recert the SFG 1, I haven't been able to snatch for one reason or another the past 2 years, durning my first SFG I was lighter and had the 20kg, now ive done things like SFB gained muscle and the 24kg without snatching for 2 years has been a real eyeopener lol, its really pushed my programming planning, I had quite a few things to work on.

Currently im doing
Day 1 : PS50 deadlifts / KB FRSQ/ KB military press
Day 2 : PS50 Deadlifts heavy day / Medium bench press 3 x 5
Day 3 : Light cardio on bike 30 mins / Flexible steel
Day 4 : Snatches, practice form in streaks of 10-15, started today using the 28 kg for 5 on this.
Day 5 : Flexible steel / Light cardio
Day 6 : Snatches 14 EMOM ( Currently ) 8 minutes
Day 7: Rest

Little other bits like Arm bars, Get ups, halos etc in there too, Im hoping I can pass SFG on the all Terrain conditioning course 23rd Sept and focus on SFL then, everything is pretty much there except the DL, If I dont pass SFG 23rd Sept, I have another recert chance on Programming Demystified 3 weeks later if im not ready durning ATC, then worst case I do it at SFL, not ideal though juggling these goals til November though

Thanks for the info. Here's what I'd do

1. Definitely stick to PS for the deadlift
2. Use easy strength or a daily dose deadlift type approach for the back squat (since you tested with 20kg prior, unless you gained over 10lbs practicing 24s and 28s for double bell squats can upkeep back squat strength in my experience)

Everything else Fabio mentioned is spot on..

Do you already have your snatch test in the bag or within striking distance??