Barbell Being Upper Back Dominant Versus Lat Dominant

[305pelusa]

When I do pulling exercises, I pay special attention to keep my shoulders low to prevent injury yet my online research showed that some people suggest doing pulling exercises with elevated shoulders to engage upper-back more. What's your thoughts about it? As I realized keeping shoulders down engages lats for sure and may be limiting range of motion of upper-back.

I have never heard of that. About the only things that come to mind are doing one-arm rows with an exaggerated ROM (letting the shoulder be pulled down and really cranking it back on the way up"), which is essentially what Kroc Rows are. The other thing is allowing the shoulders to rise at the bottom of the pull-up, and then engaging down again before pulling. This "resets" is a great way to train depression. Are those things what you're referring to? They're useful.

I haven't heard good things about letting the shoulders rise during the pull-up. If you let them elevate enough, then they're just stretching the actual structure. That might or might not be good for you.

After all, inverted rows with a wide grip seemed to be the best option for me because no elevation of shoulders is necessary and can be done with a wide grip.

In the calisthenics world, we have a saying. Pull-ups widen the back while Rows thicken the back. If you do wide grip inverted Rows, with an emphasis on keeping your elbows out and a hold at the top, you should feel an intense contraction. If you think about it, a very wide grip Row (imagine with straight elbows) is the same as doing a Bodyweight pec fly on rings. The latter is brutal on the chest. The former brutal on the mid back.

Ideally you'd find a weight vest for these. Placing your feet higher will shift the focus to your traps. Doing them one-armed seems shift everything to the biceps.

I also think it may be neurological since one may have more nerves in their lats hence more control compared to their upper-back. What do you think?

I think that's true. Initially it might be difficult to really feel the mid back cramping up. Always happens with small muscles. After some targeted training with exercises that really make you feel it, you might be more successful at getting these muscles to contract hard in all pulling work.

Once you get the hang of it with wide rows, you could try out the Bodybuilder Pull-up (aka Arched Pull-up, sometimes aka Sternum Chin-up). These are pull-ups with a lean to hit the mid back more. Same as how the incline press recruits the chest more than the overhead press. Same idea.

 

[nyet07]

@305pelusa

As I said earlier, one-arm definitely recruits more lat effort than upper back. A discussion of rows article by Pavel says so too, it says one arm literal dumbbell pulls can be an substitute for pullups for fighters. I agree because most of the effort goes to the lats and I feel it. Besides most one arm pulling movements, I even feel my lats a lot more during bilateral movements when elbows are close to body. I don't feel my upper back working enough but it is rather my lats. The only way I really feel my upper back is when doing pulling movements with a wide grip. For example, "tug of war" or batwings mentioned in Pavel's article are being done elbows close to the body. In that case my lats are recruited a lot more than my upper back. But the "Dead Row" is a lot more upper back friendly because it is performed with a wide grip where elbows flare out.

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa

As I said earlier, one-arm definitely recruits more lat effort than upper back. A discussion of rows article by Pavel says so too, it says one arm literal dumbbell pulls can be an substitute for pullups for fighters. I agree because most of the effort goes to the lats and I feel it. Besides most one arm pulling movements, I even feel my lats a lot more during bilateral movements when elbows are close to body. I don't feel my upper back working enough but it is rather my lats. The only way I really feel my upper back is when doing pulling movements with a wide grip. For example, "tug of war" or batwings mentioned in Pavel's article are being done elbows close to the body. In that case my lats are recruited a lot more than my upper back. But the "Dead Row" is a lot more upper back friendly because it is performed with a wide grip where elbows flare out.

Uhhh, ok? I mean I believe you that one arm rows might recruit your lats more. Why does that matter? I wasn't recommending any one-arm rows anyways.

I think you should do the Inverted Rows, especially with a wide grip. Just what you're saying that was working. To make them harder, don't elevate your feet (shifts emphasis to traps) and don't do the one-armed (shifts the emphasis to biceps and lats). Instead, a weight vest is ideal.

After some time with those, try out sternum chin-ups. You should be a bit more capable of really cramping up your upper back.

I always had issues with getting good upper back contractions. What helped me was Bodyweight Rowing and One-arm Push-ups (go figure). Now, it feels pretty easy for me to open up my chest and really cramp my upper back during pull-ups. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tarzan]

I always had issues with getting good upper back contractions. What helped me was Bodyweight Rowing and One-arm Push-ups (go figure). Now, it feels pretty easy for me to open up my chest and really cramp my upper back during pull-ups. Just my 2 cents.

Maybe the front lever work helped a bit there too ?

Maybe a few tucked ice cream makers could help the OP activate his targeted zone as well.

 

[305pelusa]

Maybe the front lever work helped a bit there too ?

Maybe a few tucked ice cream makers could help the OP activate his targeted zone as well.

Oh that's a good call. Now, I personally find Front Lever work to be very intense in the lats. In fact, it took me a long time to really develop a decent amount of scapular retraction in the FL to keep my shoulders somewhat neutral. So yeah, nowadays I feel my back and lats working big time, but it's taken months of conscious work to get my upper back and retraction involved. Still, it is obviously worth a try for the OP. My experience might be totally different

 

[pet']

Hello,

I think that the most difficult part of FL is clearly the scapular retraction. At least, it was the case for me. Besides, it is what prevents me to maintain for a long time. It takes me longer to build a little strength here than builld strong abs (including lats).

What helped me a lot : a good combination of agonist and antagonist: push ups and inverted row, both in wide grip (as @305pelusa said ). For the PU, I used relatively low parallel bars to have a greater ROM. Plus, I made them with elevated feet and did them slowly. Same logic for inverted rows. While doing IR, be careful on maintaing a perfectly straight position is crucial. Indeed, bending reduce back work and make the move far easier.

I used this combination for some months. Madame noticed a slightly larger back.

My "protocol" was long sets with short rest. However, I was on bdw only. So I did 5 sets of max reps (avoiding failure, so max rep - 1), in full ROM, normal / slow rythm. 25s rest between sets, 3 times a week. Plus it works conditioning (A+A way).

@nyet07 Maybe you could give a shot for a while, just to see if it works for you or not ?

Below:
A link on IR : Tip: Build Your Back with Inverted Rows | T Nation

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[305pelusa]

Horizontal pulling is missing from StrongFirst. Which is an oversight in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree with that.
To be fair to Strongfirst, pulling exercises are rarely as useful as pushing exercise. I don't have the technical knowledge to know why, but I know that's the case.

It's no wonder that successful programs (Starting Strength, Texas Method, StrongLifts, Greyskull, 5/3/1, etc) are focused on the big pushes. The Bench and the Press. Yes, Pull-ups are programmed in, but more as assistance, meant for after those Big Money lifts. Rows are sometimes added as well, if you desire to have a bigger back. But certainly not a requirement.

When it comes to the Lower body muscles, it's usually even more lopsided. Squats and Deadlifts are by far the most important lifts, and where the trainee puts the most effort. I know it's become popular to call the Deadlift a "pull", but it really isn't. The Deadlift trains all the main lower body push muscles. The glutes, the quads, the lower back. It's more of a push because you're applying force to move your Center of Mass away from the floor. Same as a Squat. It's no wonder they have such carry-over. It's almost the same groove, applying force in the same direction. I will give credit that it trains the upper body pull muscles though.

When it comes time to train the lower body pull muscles (hamstrings, hip flexors, abs, etc), maybe a few Hanging Leg Raises are thrown in there. Maybe some Nordic Curls or straight-leg deadlifts. But certainly not with the same intensity or progressive overload as the Squat or Deadlift.

I guess those are just examples to show you that it's OK for programs to be theoretically unbalanced. As long as you're at least putting some effort into balancing, it seems you'll be OK. You don't necessarily have to do just as much pulling, or just as heavy I guess it's what I mean. Obviously I don't mean one extreme (only pushing) but it seems it isn't necessary to go the other extreme (i.e. if you do heavy benching, you need to do heavy rowing just as often to keep up).

Anyways, just my take Interested to hear your thoughts on that!

 

[Tarzan]

I suppose it depends what your goals are in some respects too.

I've noticed a few things in regards to coaching Rugby league players over the years. It could be similar for Grid Iron players in some respects.

The traditional programs based on Bill Starr's style of coaching which is almost an Olympic program in some respects works great to make everybody strong in short time. For the bigger players - front rowers & forwards in league and possibly Linesman etc in Grid Iron, those programs really excel and are almost perfect.

For some of the smaller, faster and more mobile players in Rugby League (the ones that are most likely to get upended in tackles) ie half backs & 5/8 etc in Rugby & maybe quarterbacks & a few others in Grid Iron, some of those Olympic style programs will get them very strong but leaves their shoulder girdle in a state of imbalance and they can be susceptible to dislocations, particularly when they encounter an impact from an unexpected angle.

Some of the smaller guys need a more balanced approach to shoulder training and need to build strength and stability over a wider range than a front rower or linesman etc.

 

[coachnathanwhite]

@305pelusa

Anyways, just my take Interested to hear your thoughts on that!

My thoughts.....

To be fair to Strongfirst, pulling exercises are rarely as useful as pushing exercise. I don't have the technical knowledge to know why, but I know that's the case.

You know it's the case how? "Useful" is relative to the application and in the case of kettlebell training both are relevant all the time because the body is designed and performs as one piece. All of the StrongFirst kettlebell movements reflect and teach this.

I know it's become popular to call the Deadlift a "pull", but it really isn't.

In the context of kettlebell training and programming, the hip hinge is considered a "full body pull". Regardless of personal opinions, it hardly matters when discussing the overwhelmingly positive training effect that deadlifts, squats and swings have on overall athleticism.

An excellent article from Mark Riefkind that clarifies this further:

Building the Master Quality of Strength With Kettlebells

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa

My thoughts.....

You know it's the case how? "Useful" is relative to the application and in the case of kettlebell training both are relevant all the time because the body is designed and performs as one piece. All of the StrongFirst kettlebell movements reflect and teach this.

Hey thanks for the answer, I appreciate your thoughts.
Sorry the word "useful" is vague. I mean that pushing exercises do a better job of systematically training the body and hence, for the sake of getting stronger for most applications, your time is better spent there.

This is reflected in almost every sensible program. The basics are pushing exercises.

One reason might be due to Lombard's paradox. Somehow during pushing movements, like benching or squatting, it's possible to activate the antagonists (the lats and hamstrings). This is what @Steve Freides refers to when he talks about the active negative. But it doesn't seem to happen as much the other way.

In this context, it is almost like the pushing exercise is our ticket to strong structural development, with pulling thrown in to balance as needed to maintain health and correct functioning.

@305pelusa

In the context of kettlebell training and programming, the hip hinge is considered a "full body pull". Regardless of personal opinions, it hardly matters when discussing the overwhelmingly positive training effect that deadlifts, squats and swings have on overall athleticism

I definitely agree with all of this. Those are excellent exercises. And thank you for the article.

Now, just some ideas. I think it does matter slightly how you categorize it, and especially important to do it right. The whole point of categorization is so you can group it into other "similar-enough" exercises so you can program it correctly (to substitute for it, to balance it out, etc).

If you think of the Deadlift as a pull and the squat as a push, then it'd be totally fine to alternate them in sets, or train them hard the same day. But we know better than that. We know they train the same muscles, in the same direction. Hence, better to train them separately. Most programs do that. Or focus on the Squat while Deadlifting very little, because of the carry-over (Westside).

Anyways, I guess the point I'm trying to say is this:
People have squatted and Deadlifts without much of the opposite movements (Hanging Leg Raises or Straight leg Deadlifts). They have improved GREAT with that. You could attribute that to the DL and Swings being a pulls and the Squat a push and hence why they work. The line of logic I'm offering is this "They are very similar in a lot of ways... Certainly not opposites like a bench and row... Yet guess what. They work just fine together. Hence we can conclude that perhaps it's OK to work muscles in the same direction more than the other direction as long as they're big, compound exercises that involve the antagonist".

This conclusion is vital. Because we can now apply it to everything else in programming. It's OK to have more pressing than Pullups. Or more Squatting than Hanging Leg Raises. And so on. By admitting the profound similarity between DL and Squat, and noting how they lead to excellent strength development, we can learn a little more about why and how to pick exercises for a good program.

Does that make a bit more sense as to what I meant? Sorry if it's a bit confusing. The topic of pull/push is massively interesting to me and from reading a lot of stuff from Rippetoe, Pendlay, Thibaudeau, and so on, I'm starting to understand that pushing exercises form the basis of strength.

Anyways I don't want to talk much more about this since I'm starting to deviate the thread from the OP! My bad hehe.

 

[nyet07]

I just wonder for what lats, middle trapezius and rhomboids are responsible during pulling movements. Pull-ups are clearly lats focused but horizontal movements also seem to work lats as well. How do middle trapezius and rhomboids assist body during pulls?

 

[Tarzan]

How do middle trapezius and rhomboids assist body during pulls?

They are stabilisers mostly, they contract to prevent winging and limit the ROM to prevent injury.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

One reason might be due to Lombard's paradox. Somehow during pushing movements, like benching or squatting, it's possible to activate the antagonists (the lats and hamstrings).

My scientist / engineer on my has to response...
Paradoxes are not real, they indicate lack of knowledge or understanding, and many times they indicate that our baselines (assumptions, axioms and world view) are wrong.

Lombard's paradox exist because of the baseline assumption that agonist / antagonist muscles can't work in tandem. Any compound movement proves this wrong. Now we have two choices... we can say that our baseline is axiomatic and that there is a paradox in most human movement (which outside of the gym is every movement) or we can just say our assumption does not fit the findings and therefore is not acceptable. The fact that I do not have a better hypothesis at the moment does not says it is justified to keep clinging to a wrong one.

Pretty much every tension technique calls for the recruitment of as many muscles as possible...

As far as I know no one has a clear answer about how multi-articular muscles work. There allot of research on the subject, some interesting ideas, but no clearer answer yet, at least from the staff I see from time to time.

IMHO the reason some people need to pull allot is the correct trashed shoulder girdle from years of excessive (horizontal?) pushing with bad from, many time because they don't know how the generate scapular stability, and pulling does it as part of the movement.

I think SF curriculum does not require "direct" pulling since TGUs are stability generators, shoulder packing in 1-arm swing is a pull, OH work has a distinctive shoulder stability demands, clean has a pull in it, and keeping the bells in the rack while squatting also has stability demands.

 

[nyet07]

@Shahaf Levin

Another 2 cents... (actually these are the same two cents from before, based on more information from the thread)

Pull-aparts working your front deltoid rather than posterior delt and rhomboids, OH work that does not stimulate scapular stabilizers... Sounds to me like dysfunctional stabilization patterns. Do you have any ROM limitations in your shoulder girdle or T-spine? Pain? I would suggest you would do a FMS and go from there. Seems you need mobility and patterning work.

I was tinkering with band pullaparts last couple weeks and because I wanted to feel the muscles in my back (mid trapezius and rear delts). Instead what I was experiencing was front deltoid exhaustion with no feeling of work in my back. I recorded a video and saw there was also scapular winging during the movement. Since I knew scapular winging is associated to weak serratus anterior I decided to consciously involve my lats and serratus anterior to see if they'd help. My experience was much positive thereafter. My front-deltoids didn't sore, scapular winging disappeared to a large degree and I was feeling the movement in my back rather than my front shoulders. It felt more natural after all.

I agree with your comment about dysfunctional stabilization. But I'd like to figure out is the cause. Is it due to not being used to, neurological problems or muscular weakness?

By the way, what does OH work stand for?
I have pain in my left shoulder blade and left lat.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

I agree with your comment about dysfunctional stabilization. But I'd like to figure out is the cause. Is it due to not being used to, neurological problems or muscular weakness?

I can't answer that. A licensed and competent physical therapist could probably give you the answer. However, by what you described in the band pull-aparts I assume it is motor control (neurological, but I don't want to call it a problem). Furthermore, many time it is with stabilization...

While I cause is out of scope for me I will give a few suggestion on how I would try to solve it with my trainees.
First, if I haven't mentioned it already, get an FMS and find the gaps in your movement. We all have some, and the only way to fill them is to know where they are. As a part of that suggestion, do not move in pain. Pain changes movement in an inconsistent and unpredictable way. Pain I not a fitness problem, so if you have pain in movement go to a medical professional.

Practice diaphragmatic breathing as much as you can. You can mix in also power-breathing, but focus on deep and relaxed breathing. This is KEY!

I would continue with OS resets (breathing is one of them) - prone head/neck nods and segmental rolling. You can also add rocking, but don't get out of your comfort zone to much (wherever it may be).

Than push and pull, but by that I mean compress and distract the shoulder joint. SFG armbars are great for teaching thoracic spine and shoulder girdle patterns, than half TGU and TGU for the push/compress. Deadlifts and swings for the pull/distract. All of these work full body balance and stabilization.

Mmm... I guess I could have just written S&S instead of that paragraph

By the way, what does OH work stand for?

OH stands for overhead.

I have pain in my left shoulder blade and left lat.

Pain I not a fitness problem, so if you have pain in movement go to a medical professional. See how it feels after 20 prone diaphragmatic breathings

 

[nyet07]

@Shahaf Levin

My guess is there are muscles imbalances. Upper traps and front deltoids are a lot stronger so they suppress mid-low traps and rhomboids.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

@Shahaf Levin

My guess is there are muscles imbalances. Upper traps and front deltoids are a lot stronger so they suppress mid-low traps and rhomboids.

I base my opinion on your description of the pull-apart alone, so I am definitely missing data, however...

It can be motor control issue, either (scapular?) stability or pulling pattern, it can be mobility, in real life those things feed of each other. Moving in compensated pattern will lead to muscle imbalances, which will lead to bigger compensations, which will lead to...

There is no reason to pull with your front deltoids in an uncompensated pull, regardless of their strength. It's like saying that someone with very strong abs can't stand erect...

Knowing how relax your muscles is part of the game of strength and movement (and a key to power & speed).

I hope I made (at least some) sense.

 

[nyet07]

@Shahaf Levin

Here are couple more things I have realized during my trials. I record myself doing the movement and try to figure out what's going on. I list possible causes below:

1-)Hunched back. It definitely changes normal move pattern. When I try to do pullaparts with a hunched back, I certainly feel I cannot incorporate my lower traps into the movement. It is rather upper or mid traps that work the most in a hunched back position. (I have hunch back problem due to long hours of sitting.)

2-)As you already stated, it is important to know what muscles to relax at the right time. I realized I tense my upper traps and front deltoids throughout the movement. Probably that's also because of hunched back.

3-)PAIN. Even though I fix my posture, my left scapula moves in an abnormal pattern whereas right scapula moves as it is supposed to. I have pain in the bottom right and throughout the vertical line of inner side of my left scapula. When I was watching recordings of me doing the movements, I realized the side that has the pain moves differently than the other side. For example, bottom of the scapula sticks out more and it tends to move away from the rib cage. I believe the pain makes me not being able to take advantage of my left lower traps so mid and upper traps take over the movement.

Interestingly I have pain in that region around 4 years and it never completely went away. I've had various injuries in the past, most of which disappeared over time. But my left scapula only keeps hurting. When body is in the shape of T where arms are completely extended to the sides where they are parallel to the floor, trying to reach back with my left arm really hurts inner side of my left scapula. I don't have the same problem with my right side and they move differently during pullaparts as I saw from videos of myself doing the movement.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

@Shahaf Levin

Here are couple more things I have realized during my trials. I record myself doing the movement and try to figure out what's going on. I list possible causes below:

1-)Hunched back. It definitely changes normal move pattern. When I try to do pullaparts with a hunched back, I certainly feel I cannot incorporate my lower traps into the movement. It is rather upper or mid traps that work the most in a hunched back position. (I have hunch back problem due to long hours of sitting.)

2-)As you already stated, it is important to know what muscles to relax at the right time. I realized I tense my upper traps and front deltoids throughout the movement. Probably that's also because of hunched back.

3-)PAIN. Even though I fix my posture, my left scapula moves in an abnormal pattern whereas right scapula moves as it is supposed to. I have pain in the bottom right and throughout the vertical line of inner side of my left scapula. When I was watching recordings of me doing the movements, I realized the side that has the pain moves differently than the other side. For example, bottom of the scapula sticks out more and it tends to move away from the rib cage. I believe the pain makes me not being able to take advantage of my left lower traps so mid and upper traps take over the movement.

Interestingly I have pain in that region around 4 years and it never completely went away. I've had various injuries in the past, most of which disappeared over time. But my left scapula only keeps hurting. When body is in the shape of T where arms are completely extended to the sides where they are parallel to the floor, trying to reach back with my left arm really hurts inner side of my left scapula. I don't have the same problem with my right side and they move differently during pullaparts as I saw from videos of myself doing the movement.

Get away from pullaparts for awhile. Do not move in pain. Work on your T-spine mobility as much as necessary (read: as much as you can), if your T-spine mobility is compromised you will not attain scapular stability.

And seriously, find a medical professional you trust (and hopefully is physically active himself/herself) and address your pain. Pain is a medical problem, not a fitness problem. If the check engine light is on in your car you go to a mechanic, not a driving teacher.

One more thing, you put and effort to find and solve a problem, that's great!

 

[North Coast Miller]

Pendlay rows, T-bar rows, bent rows with a variety of gripping strategies.

IMHO you have to figure out what the muscle group is and apply load in that plane. To differentiate from lats you need to apply resistance opposite the upper back and not the middle.

Is also important (very) when working across the upper back to get solid compression/max shortening of the muscles at the top of the lift - lacking that you lose a lot of the benefit.

I used to have a similar issue - looked like I weighed 200 if viewed from the front but if I turned sideways, all chest and shoulders - strike 15 lbs off that number.

Had to consult with some of the resident powerlifters to make a good back routine for myself that leaned heavily on T-bar, bent row, and one handed row.