Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

[Anna C]

- it would be interesting to build a program/plan out for a quality like this in terms of weekly volume, intensity, etc. ;

I don't think a program/plan for this is a good idea.

@Harald Motz Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've hardly been doing any get-ups lately... ?

I think this idemonstrates the nature of the get-up -- Past a medium-heavy weight, doing get-ups is not always the best training for being able to do get-ups... or much else, for that matter. There are better ways to train, which is exactly what Harald has been doing. And then he can do 100 get-ups with the beast.

 

[wespom9]

Hi @Anna C , I don't necessarily mean a program of increasing volume of TGU per se - it's almost one of those S&S "challenges without breaking yourself" - but rather using a progressive template to build the quality of strength endurance, much like Al's plan is a progressive template to build power endurance, following SF principles. This is of course possible - there are many SE programs out there - that could use a tweaking to fit more within SF and Pavel's principles/research, it was more just a leading thought to the question "How would I program for this quality?" which of course is dependent on many factors.

 

[rwleonard]

I once did a program of nothing but Bent press/Reverse TGU, done OTM for varying volume and weight one or two days per week, plus one heavy day, trying to increase the weight with lots of rest. It was all I did at the time besides BJJ. It had huge carry-over to the mat.

 

[Harald Motz]

- does not hit the fast fibers, so is not "A+A" as you pointed out.

This specific get up session follows general A+A guidelines. doing work with a reasonably heavy weight that with adequate rest that enables to 'repeat' the work. In this case I did emom and in this 'experiment' it turned out that I got a perfect work/rest ratio this was kind of a nice given on that day. Emom does not mean adequate rest. It can be when the the parameters get into homeostasis. Slightly higher intensity, slightly lower rest, and the recovery gets incomplete over time.

Generally the most foolproof and easiest way to recover just adequately is to use a hrm and let the hr fall to a baseline to start the next repeat. It happened that I used the hrm extensively over the last years with strength and endurance work while it is nowadays such a reliable and easy way to log the training with the apps. No comparison with my first monitors almost twenty years ago. That does not mean I am dependend on it, I surely could leave it completely aside. But in my opinion hr graphs give a pretty good 'picture' what's going on physiologically and can be used for endurance (for which they might be 'designed' for in the first place) but strength endurance and also 'pure strength work'.

- While grinds like this may not build the aerobic system as A+A does a practice in aerobic recovery, slowing breathing, etc. is there nonetheless

the longer a session gets, the more 'endurance' gets involved, like you say aerobic recovery. In my personal view of things the most important things/workers that 'actively recover' the systems are the pumping heart and breathing muscles and the gas exchange on the cellular level.

- it would be interesting to build a program/plan out for a quality like this in terms of weekly volume, intensity,

Personally I don't believe in programming. I tend to believe in cummulative effects of some quality work. What really is sufficient is a set of some reasonable guidelines, a grasp of the metabolic events that happen with different intensity, weight and power output rest schemes, overall duration of work.

- but rather using a progressive template to build the quality of strength endurance,

Pick a lift or two find your workhorse weight and pile on work. A+A guidelines work on every lift. The progression is in the repeatability from repeat to repeat, also of these kind of sessions. The progression might being able to do the same work in less time. The same amount of work parameters with lower average hr.

-strength is the one side of the coin. Endurance the other. Strengthendurance only work only gets you so far. The 'real secret' of strength endurance in my opinion is working the aerobic system at low enough intensity to work the slow fibers. Slow fiber mitochondria is a sink for the pyruvate produced by the fast fibers. they can recycle dome of it backto ATP. 'Uphill Athlete' describes it quite nicely.


An examples of today's session. I called the picture today: heartratesymphony. I like to paint hr-graphs.

 

[Anna C]

it was more just a leading thought to the question "How would I program for this quality?" which of course is dependent on many factors.

Ah, yes, makes sense. And this is a good point/question. Generally speaking, I think Harald's approach of training the base qualities of strength and endurance separately is the best way to acquire strength endurance.

Edit/Add: I see Harald and I said the same thing at the same time, but he said it better.

 

[Harald Motz]

@Harald Motz Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've hardly been doing any get-ups lately... ?

Yes, not very much.

I don't think a program/plan for this is a good idea.

I said it occasionally: with A+A you have program without programming. You have programming for a lifetime. It is just a set of just reasonable guidelines very easy to understand.

Ah, yes, makes sense. And this is a good point/question. Generally speaking, I think Harald's approach of training the base qualities of strength and endurance separately is the best way to acquire strength endurance.

Edit/Add: I see Harald and I said the same thing at the same time, but he said it better.

My general advice would be to do them seperatly one day strength/A+A, the other day endurance, easy endurance. Personally I have found that endurance most of the time can't be easy enough.

It can happen that I have in a training session all qualities in: power, strength and endurance. Short bits of power and strength I like too.

 

[wespom9]

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts! "Cumulative effects with quality work" is a succinct summation of your strategy. "A program without a program" might be another way I would describe it.

 

[WxHerk]

Personally I don't believe in programming. I tend to believe in cummulative effects of some quality work. What really is sufficient is a set of some reasonable guidelines, a grasp of the metabolic events that happen with different intensity, weight and power output rest schemes, overall duration of work.


Pick a lift or two find your workhorse weight and pile on work. A+A guidelines work on every lift. The progression is in the repeatability from repeat to repeat, also of these kind of sessions. The progression might being able to do the same work in less time. The same amount of work parameters with lower average hr.

I strongly agree, @Harald Motz . Apart from a three month 5/3/1 deadlift cycle this past October ~ Christmas, I have been making tremendous progress with A&A type training; mostly 32kg snatch repeats. I don't care for programming; I keep a mental "payroll," I owe so many KB snatches, swings, clean and jerk, and occasionally squats. Mix in some pullups and pushups and occasional sprinting (fast turtle at my age), and I feel terrific and stop looooong before my body even thinks about being fatigued.

One aside, @Anna C and I have what Dan John calls an "Intentional Community" where we rarely do the same thing but we train next to each other and support each other and occasionally others. Poor Anna is usually correcting something I'm buffooning up!! But training around Anna has made me keep upping my game and now, training at home by myself until normalcy returns, I absolutely must keep working as I must return to the gym strong, capable, and ready.

 

[Harald Motz]

@wespom9
When I said I don't believe in programming I don't mean that (good) programs don't work - when following the parameters they do.

@Pasibrzuch did a nice job how to organize A+A sessions if one needs more structure.
For me personally a handfull of guidelines are sufficient.

For A+A snatch work specifically a good starting point is a bell one can snatch 8-10 reps strongly. With decent technique. You need a 'workhorse' weight and begin to pile up some volume. It makes a lot of sense to stay for some weeks with purely one bell even if you might feel you could snatch heavier. To see how you react to the volume accumulation and giving the body time to adapt. Even if you feel fine after a session, the volume can creep up over time that you feel a bit wiped.

Usually in the beginning there are rapid improvements to a great degree nervous system adaptations getting quite efficient with the movement. Then next fastest adaptations might be on the cellular and energy system level, then muscles (building of the specific muscles), building of bones sinews, tendons take months, years...with regards to hands I would say snatch enthusiasm can always be far ahead of the skin. Also the nervous system aspect to refine technique further and using a heavier bell , doing more volume, going somewhat into iverspeed takes years then too.

For building up strength endurance we meanwhile have some anecdotal evidence by quite a lot of people in a range of age (although the 'boring' stuff seems to atract rather the seasoned people), me included that show that A+A snatching is quite effective and even doing a lot of volume with kind of heavy weight is safe to the body. It does build it up. The one arm snatch seems to be the best overall package to build a lot of attributes simultaneously. It is as GPP as it can get.


here is another example I am experimenting for a few months with: hexbar deadlift singles:



My version of A+A deadlifts. I have a workhorse weight here, and pile on some work. For this kind of work I put on working gloves no joke. Snatching with ripped hands is more pleasant to me than gripping the knurling repeatedly...

This A+A stuff is about having a workhorse and giving the horse some work. Nutrition recommendation for a workhorse is lots of oats. I like ground naked oats mixed with homemade raw milk kefir.

A+A is ...Art + Autoregulation.

 

[Trever]

@wespom9
When I said I don't believe in programming I don't mean that (good) programs don't work - when following the parameters they do.

@Pasibrzuch did a nice job how to organize A+A sessions if one needs more structure.
For me personally a handfull of guidelines are sufficient.

For A+A snatch work specifically a good starting point is a bell one can snatch 8-10 reps strongly. With decent technique. You need a 'workhorse' weight and begin to pile up some volume. It makes a lot of sense to stay for some weeks with purely one bell even if you might feel you could snatch heavier. To see how you react to the volume accumulation and giving the body time to adapt. Even if you feel fine after a session, the volume can creep up over time that you feel a bit wiped.

Usually in the beginning there are rapid improvements to a great degree nervous system adaptations getting quite efficient with the movement. Then next fastest adaptations might be on the cellular and energy system level, then muscles (building of the specific muscles), building of bones sinews, tendons take months, years...with regards to hands I would say snatch enthusiasm can always be far ahead of the skin. Also the nervous system aspect to refine technique further and using a heavier bell , doing more volume, going somewhat into iverspeed takes years then too.

For building up strength endurance we meanwhile have some anecdotal evidence by quite a lot of people in a range of age (although the 'boring' stuff seems to atract rather the seasoned people), me included that show that A+A snatching is quite effective and even doing a lot of volume with kind of heavy weight is safe to the body. It does build it up. The one arm snatch seems to be the best overall package to build a lot of attributes simultaneously. It is as GPP as it can get.


here is another example I am experimenting for a few months with: hexbar deadlift singles:



My version of A+A deadlifts. I have a workhorse weight here, and pile on some work. For this kind of work I put on working gloves no joke. Snatching with ripped hands is more pleasant to me than gripping the knurling repeatedly...

This A+A stuff is about having a workhorse and giving the horse some work. Nutrition recommendation for a workhorse is lots of oats. I like ground naked oats mixed with homemade raw milk kefir.

A+A is ...Art + Autoregulation.

Hello Harald,
Are you combining different lifts using A+A protocol? I don’t mean in the same training session or even same day, but over the course of a week. For example 3 days/week snatch and 2 days/week hexbar deadlift.
Or, are you sticking with one lift exclusively for long periods of time and hitting it a certain number of sessions per week? Thanks.

Trever

 

[Bauer]

Hello Harald,
Are you combining different lifts using A+A protocol? I don’t mean in the same training session or even same day, but over the course of a week. For example 3 days/week snatch and 2 days/week hexbar deadlift.
Or, are you sticking with one lift exclusively for long periods of time and hitting it a certain number of sessions per week? Thanks.

Trever

If you have instagram than you should follow @Harald Motz
He posts a lot of sessions.

From the outside I would say that he combines the principles from Easy Strength, S&S, A+A, Q&D and Cluster Singles in an intuitive way. Not to forget a Zen like approach and aerobic base building.

BTW: I think he should get a new forum title: Die Motz Maschine

 

[WxHerk]

BTW: I think he should get a new forum title: Die Motz Maschine

Hey!! I've already named Harald ?"Motzilla!!" ?

 

[Harald Motz]

Hello Harald,
Are you combining different lifts using A+A protocol? I don’t mean in the same training session or even same day, but over the course of a week. For example 3 days/week snatch and 2 days/week hexbar deadlift.
Or, are you sticking with one lift exclusively for long periods of time and hitting it a certain number of sessions per week? Thanks.

Trever

With A+A I use(d) mostly the one arm snatch. I did for a few weeks heavy clean & pushpress singles, worked also great. It is in my opinion the best method to be getting familiar to a lift and improve it quite quickly...another time just common sense and reasonable when you do a lift over and over again for low reps minimizing factors that lead to fatigue.

With an A+A session I usually use one lift.

For example 3 days/week snatch and 2 days/week hexbar deadlift.

This actually would make up for a pretty good template...I follow no real logic there 1-3 A+A per week 3-6 hex/press cluster. They ebb and flow into each other.

From the outside I would say that he combines the principles from Easy Strength, S&S, A+A, Q&D and Cluster Singles in an intuitive way. Not to forget a Zen like approach and aerobic base building.

Summs it up pretty well. The last weeks months I use the cluster singles extensively. Basically it plays out of a single rep on 30 sec for 4-6 singles a cluster. This continuum can shift to emom and A+A which seems to me as a kind of open end to some degree. By now I have found personally a pretty good grasp of a few basic things I can work with for a very long time.

He posts a lot of sessions.

Haha yes. Although I currently really entertain the thought of stop to log alltogether. I feel more and more about it like the artists piling uneven stones. Pile it up take a shot and let it fall apart. So I would still pile up some work but take no shot anymore...quite a few chest streps allready fell apart, and the one I use now just patched up somehow.

Not to forget a Zen like approach and aerobic base building.

I like the non-sense of zen. Yes aerobic base building is a thing this is a matter of volume simple as that.

 

[LoneRider]

Most recent Alactic and Aerobic session I used snatches only as my ballistic exercise and did an 'easy strength' grind with either military presses at 32KG (odd numbered sets) and uneven front squats (with 32KG and 24KG) for singles and doubles with the snatches in fives.

There's definitely no kidding for the snatch as the Tsar of Kettlebell lifts, wound up hitting 120 reps (over 24 repeats). With the presses I managed to get my heart rate up to 164 BPM after the snatches. Then I recovered aerobically until I felt ready to hit the next 'couplet' and went from there. I definitely see there's a lot to this A+A set of principles.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Today I did my first session over 30 repeats. Each repeat was 5 swings at 48kgs, besides the first two (overspeed 32kgs). I finished with double 28kgs clean-press-squat on S&T engine. A big pull and a push.
Some thoughts:
- I would never thought I'll be capable of such an effort. It definitely abolishes some psychological borders and perspective on what high volume really is.
- It's a mental training. I try to make it a moving meditation, but as a person with focus problems my thoughts often wander somewhere else and I'm starting to have imaginary dialogues and arguments inside my head. If you have a tip on how to stay mindful, go ahead.
- I wouldn't say it leaves me entirely fresh. I'm not destroyed as after some metcon, but I've just eaten a horse's breakfast and some sleepiness is creeping in. Will the body adapt?
- I'm wondering whether such volume will be maintainable when quarantine is over and I come back to my Muay Thai gym aka Glycolis Sauna. Do you think switching to a lower volume be necessary when I come back to my regimen?

Also, I have a question on the power output: is doing powerful free-fall swings enough, or shoud I exert more violence on the bell and add active eccentrics to deplete creatine phosphate sufficiently?

Definitely gonna keep this regimen for a while. Putting aside the effects it may yield, it's an interesting experience.

 

[Anna C]

View attachment 10168

Today I did my first session over 30 repeats. Each repeat was 5 swings at 48kgs, besides the first two (overspeed 32kgs). I finished with double 28kgs clean-press-squat on S&T engine. A big pull and a push.
Some thoughts:
- I would never thought I'll be capable of such an effort. It definitely abolishes some psychological borders and perspective on what high volume really is.
- It's a mental training. I try to make it a moving meditation, but as a person with focus problems my thoughts often wander somewhere else and I'm starting to have imaginary dialogues and arguments inside my head. If you have a tip on how to stay mindful, go ahead.
- I wouldn't say it leaves me entirely fresh. I'm not destroyed as after some metcon, but I've just eaten a horse's breakfast and some sleepiness is creeping in. Will the body adapt?
- I'm wondering whether such volume will be maintainable when quarantine is over and I come back to my Muay Thai gym aka Glycolis Sauna. Do you think switching to a lower volume be necessary when I come back to my regimen?

Also, I have a question on the power output: is doing powerful free-fall swings enough, or shoud I exert more violence on the bell and add active eccentrics to deplete creatine phosphate sufficiently?

Definitely gonna keep this regimen for a while. Putting aside the effects it may yield, it's an interesting experience.

Good session! Yes it definitely sounds like A+A. The volume that is possible can be eye-opening. On staying mindful, just go with it, enjoy how it goes, focus on your recovery breathing and body sensations in the beginning of the rest period and whatever technique tip you are working on at the end of it, just before the next repeat. Stay calm. As for the feeling afterwards, sounds like what I remember. It does take something out of you but the feeling is... unique. Yes there is some adaptation but if you keep pushing the volume you just begin to be able to do more in a session and the longer/harder sessions will always feel like that. Don't know on the volume once you get back to regular activities... you'll probably have to experiment and see. But you will feel the benefit of the work you're doing now.

If you can add active eccentrics that is a good addition, but at 48kg, that is difficult! With lighter swings, or with snatches, it's a good thing to seek. Likely you are depleting PCr sufficiently if your 5 swings are good and powerful at that weight.

 

[Harald Motz]

- I would never thought I'll be capable of such an effort. It definitely abolishes some psychological borders and perspective on what high volume really is.

absolutely with the just right amount of rest fairly high poweroutput-repeats can ve repeated for a very long time.

- It's a mental training. I try to make it a moving meditation, but as a person with focus problems my thoughts often wander somewhere else and I'm starting to have imaginary dialogues and arguments inside my head. If you have a tip on how to stay mindful, go ahead.

The age old meditation trick is to stay focused on breathing. Breathing deeply from belly to chest and out deeply in reverse. Watch how your breathing behaves directly after a repeat and how calm it is at the start of the next repeat. In meditation counting breath is often used to stay on breathing. You count from 1-10 and would begin by one again. An additional challenge to breathing and the foxud on it can be to experiment with giving yourself a number of breaths to recover. You do repeats of five and you might start with 10 breaths. In the beginning it might be easy but later it might get hard. To be getting longer rest is to slow down each phase of the breath with short pause at complete in or exhale. (S&S 1 edition has a chapter on this technique)

Try to stay focused on breath and see how it goes.

- I wouldn't say it leaves me entirely fresh. I'm not destroyed as after some metcon, but I've just eaten a horse's breakfast and some sleepiness is creeping in. Will the body adapt?

Hr readings give a good picture what goes on metabollically. But it is not the whole picture. With high power ballistics there are things going on: high cns activity by the pure explosiveness, high grip demand, high 'virtual force peak', high concentric and eccentric forces: high demand on the soft tissue. I have snatch sessions with a good amount of volume with a heavy weight and polar says: light load haha...

Also, I have a question on the power output: is doing powerful free-fall swings enough, or shoud I exert more violence on the bell and add active eccentrics to deplete creatine phosphate sufficiently?

Especially if you are new to A+A (new to this weight too?) High power concentrics are enough at this stage. Do it for some weeks you might work your plan you have written and check how you respond.
Going fast eccentric is surely an advanced method and technique changes a bit. You could incorporate at some time in the future when your technique is rock solid some for just a few repeats fast ecc. Or on a really low volume session of less than 100 total reps.

Definitely gonna keep this regimen for a while. Putting aside the effects it may yield, it's an interesting experience.

Some aspects click relatively quick with A+A...but it is in the long game when the boredom gets funny.

 

[william bad butt]

I'm about 4 months or so into A&A snatching. So I am still a beginner compared to others here. I am taking it easy since I am still following the 10/20/Life program (which is technically, probably, "Bus Bench program" but I try to make it as "park bench" as possible): I do 2 days per week of 10 sets of 5 reps (each arm) with the 32 kg. And a 3rd day per week, doing less sets, with the 40kg bell. I do less work on this 3rd day because I do other strength training on that day. But as you can tell, I'm doing a lot less volume than most and I am still seeing a benefit.

I like it! Pure GPP for me. It seems to fill in all the gaps for me. Strength, mobility, core, power/speed, aerobic conditioning, plus it is not too demanding (time or effort). Plus I think it is hardening me up a little bit, in terms of my body comp.

 

[Harald Motz]

I'm about 4 months or so into A&A snatching. So I am still a beginner compared to others here. I am taking it easy since I am still following the 10/20/Life program (which is technically, probably, "Bus Bench program" but I try to make it as "park bench" as possible): I do 2 days per week of 10 sets of 5 reps (each arm) with the 32 kg. And a 3rd day per week, doing less sets, with the 40kg bell. I do less work on this 3rd day because I do other strength training on that day. But as you can tell, I'm doing a lot less volume than most and I am still seeing a benefit.

I like it! Pure GPP for me. It seems to fill in all the gaps for me. Strength, mobility, core, power/speed, aerobic conditioning, plus it is not too demanding (time or effort). Plus I think it is hardening me up a little bit, in terms of my body comp.

Nicely adjusted to your other plans and goals. I remember you did in your winter (off) season more A+A volume? Volume snatching in chilly times is...cool. in the warmth...uncool. There are so many options to stay in the snatch game and keeping it interesting : doing q&d style snatches but with A+A resting or like you do heavier bell lower volume...

 

[william bad butt]

Nicely adjusted to your other plans and goals. I remember you did in your winter (off) season more A+A volume? Volume snatching in chilly times is...cool. in the warmth...uncool. There are so many options to stay in the snatch game and keeping it interesting : doing q&d style snatches but with A+A resting or like you do heavier bell lower volume...

Yes. Late last year I was doing more. More volume with more weight. I've never really gone above 10sx5r per arm per session, I stayed with this consistently. But I was up to 4 sessions and eventually worked up to the 40 kg. Chasing serious strength goals means I have to back off. I want to total ELITE in the 3 powerlifts. So I treat this like S&S, in a way. The S&S general consensus, when starting out, is to focus and become SIMPLE. Afterwards, one can chase another goal and do a "maintenance" S&S 2 days per week. Right? Well, that is basically what I am doing with A&A snatches now. Maybe next Fall/Winter they will become the "meat" of my dish. Right now they are the potatoes!

Regards,

Eric