Kettlebell Float height for maximum kettlebell swing strength training

[GreenSoup]

I have questions about kettlebell swing height and strength. Lately I’ve been going heavier and decided I should only swing to float at shoulder height. I have Pavel’s original recommendations for what a male trainee might want (16,24,32kg) so more swing strength means uneven doubles until I decide to buy more. If the KBs float much more than 4-6 inches lower than with my arm parallel to the floor then the rep gets a no-count. If the KBs are too heavy to reach that point then I’ll only train with lighter ones. I saw a video of a guy “swinging” 300 pounds on a plate-loaded handle but it just looked less like a swing and more like a bad Elvis impersonator.

So a crisp shoulder height swing should avoid that kind of physical self-mockery. I thought this height meant I was using consistent force, and that if I either lost snap or went too low that meant I reached technical failure with that weight.

Then I read this article with a plan by Mark Reifkind and it messed me up:

The Ultimate Swing Program

If you’re looking to take your swing ability from OK to masterful while enjoying a plethora of accompanying performance improvements in other areas, this is for you. A well-executed swing is the essential building block for cleans and snatches. The Hardstyle swing is the Great White shark of...

www.kettlebellkings.com

“The kettlebell must be swung to anywhere between belt and lower sternum height and must be parked like a pro after every set.”

So it made me wonder about my current training plans.

I still presume a shoulder height swing uses more force, but that height needed to build swing strength? My swing can float at shoulder height with 16+24. My double swings with 16+32kg need a lot of elastic rebound so I get to shoulder height around rep 6-7 and rarely finish out to rep 10 with either the height or the snap I want. I still can keep the float at sternum height though.

If strength is the goal, is it a waste of time to swing higher than prescribed by Mr Reifkind?

As a second semi-related question, how heavy is too heavy? Years ago I believe I read that it can compromise form in some way to swing more than you weigh but I cannot find the link. If I buy a 40kg and a 48kg and swing them together as uneven doubles that would be slightly over my body weight.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I think there are better kb exercises for strength that swings. Double Clean and press or double kb rack squats definitely

 

[Skip]

For my swings (a way behind you in weight, currently working on simple with the single 32kg for swings) I have to say I haven't focused too much on float height, more on hitting a sharp, snappy upright plank at the top and a good hinge at the bottom. When I have focused on float height, I found my form at both ends suffered. For me the swings are more about the plank, the hinge, the volume and the consistency.
Short version - maybe don't worry about it too much?

 

[Anna C]

Good question, and I expect will continue to be a good discussion.

As a second semi-related question, how heavy is too heavy? Years ago I believe I read that it can compromise form in some way to swing more than you weigh but I cannot find the link.

This one is the one I can answer with the most confidence. Too heavy is when you cannot maintain good control of your spine and the kettlebell is winning the battle. If the kettlebell pulls you out of having control of the position of your hips and back and shoulders, it is too heavy.

IMO, there would not be any weight relative to bodyweight or any absolute weight that would be too heavy. (Others may disagree.)

I could see where it might seem to be a handy basic safety parameter to proclaim that if you can't do a good full swing with a weight that it's too heavy to use for swings, but I think that's overly simplistic and I would not say that, myself.

I still presume a shoulder height swing uses more force, but that height needed to build swing strength? My swing can float at shoulder height with 16+24. My double swings with 16+32kg need a lot of elastic rebound so I get to shoulder height around rep 6-7 and rarely finish out to rep 10 with either the height or the snap I want. I still can keep the float at sternum height though.

If strength is the goal, is it a waste of time to swing higher than prescribed by Mr Reifkind?

I think heavy can be useful. It's just more towards the "deadlift" or "barbell power clean" end of the spectrum. With a barbell, think of a high pull -- with this exercise, there is no height standard, there is just loading heavy and executing maximum power against the load. But it's harder to program this. Easier to program power cleans where the movement is completed with a given load. So that tends to be more common.

Swing to chest height is the most useful standardization of a swing, so that you can easily quantify what you're doing, program and progress with known variables, and focus on technique within standard movement parameters. But lower swings can be quite useful and definitely develop strength and power.

Heavy swings are fun. Where's that video of me swinging 68 kg... 6 years ago... wow

Anna Swinging the 68kg

Anna deftly handles a kettlebell 10lbs less than her bodyweight. Well done!!

youtube.com

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

about kettlebell swing height and strength.

Weight Determines Height

As you realize the a major determinate of the height of the swing is the weight of the Kettlebells.

A secondary factors is where an individual decides to take their foot off the gas and allow the Kettlebell to float.

Kettlebell Swing Are A Power Movement.

Using the Kettlebell Swing to increase strength amount to using a crescent wrench to drive a nail. It works to some degreee.

However, a hammer is more effective for drving nails.

The Take Home Message

there are better kb exercises for strength that swings.

In other word, use the right tool for the job.

Light Kettlebell Swings

A lighter Kettlebell is allowed to float eariler and farther in The Swings.

Doing so, limited the range in which Power is elicited and developed.

Heavy Kettlebell Swings

With a heavier Kettlebell Swing, Power is elicted and developed in a greater range of The Swing.

Kettlebell Power Swings

Power is most effectively developed when it is kept within a certain range.

Science of The Swings

Science of the Swing

...and many other movements.

scienceoftheswing.blogspot.com

This artrticle and the graph below deterermined that Power was most effective developed with a Kettlebell that was around 30% of the lifter's body weight.




Are Heavy Kettlebell Swing Better Than Deadlifts

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?

Heavy kettlebell swings could be the best damn posterior chain exercise you're not doing, possibly even better than deadlifts! Here's why.

www.t-nation.com

Dr Bret Contreras determined Power Output was most effective developed with heaveir loads.

Style	Load (lbs)	Peak Vertical Force (N)	Peak Horizontal Force (N)
Squat Style	70	2,170-2,349	166-182
Squat Style	140	2,431-2,444	278-353
Hip Hinge Style	70	1,935-2,140	340-402
Hip Hinge Style	140	2,325-2,550	499-520

Another Method

Another method of ensuring Power is developed through a greater range of the movement is Banded Kettlebell Swings.

Dr. Craig Marker Demonstration



Banded Kettlebell Swings allow a lifter develop Power through a greater Range of the movement.

Heavier Low Kettlebell Swings

lower swings can be quite useful and definitely develop strength and power.

Heavier Lower Swing are going increase Power and Strength to a greater degree in the Posterior Chain.

Lighter Kettlebell Swing are less effective at increasing Power in the Posterior Chain.

Anna's 68 kg/150 lb Swing

This demonstrate Contreras research on performing Heavier Kettlebells Swings.

Anna Swinging the 68kg

Anna deftly handles a kettlebell 10lbs less than her bodyweight. Well done!!

www.youtube.com

Summary

1) Kettlebell Swings are a Power Movement.

2) Power is optimally developed with load of 30% to 70% plus of Body Weight.

3) Banded Kettlebell Swing ensure Power is developed through a greater range of the movement.

 

[Steve Freides]

@GreenSoup, too much thinking and not enough swinging.

From the print edition of S&S, page 36, the following advice applies to your first try at kettlebell swings. It is also the only advice you need to follow for a long time. "If you are doing everything right, the bell will naturally go up to a level somewhere between your stomach and shoulders. Do not try to swing it higher! Like a broad jump or a straight punch, the swing is an exercise in projecting power forward."

We all learn after a while that, for the simple reason that we are "projecting power forward" but we are also holding onto the kettlebell, which limits how far forward it can go, one can apply more force than is needed for the kettlebell to reach a particular height. This complicates matters somewhat but needn't get in your way.

If your swings are a little lower than recommended some days, consider switching something: maybe a lighter bell, maybe doing two-handed swings if you'd started with the one-handed version, maybe switching to a lighter weight, maybe rethinking your planned volume for the day, maybe rethinking the number of swings in each set for the day, or maybe even putting the bell down and taking a nap instead of doing swings. All are fine, acceptable, and arguably smart choices when your swing session isn't going well.

If your swings are going too high, remind yourself to project power forward, not up. This will limit the height of the swing to parallel.

The kind of swings discussed in the "Are Heavy Swings Better Than Deadlifts" article is an advanced application of the kettlebell swing that no one ever needs to do unless, perhaps, you are using heavy swings to take the place of deadlifts, which in turn makes us ask the very important question of why you're swinging a kettlebell in the first place. For most people, most of the time, follow the guidance in S&S and don't give the matter further thought. Beyond the portion I quoted from page 36, other kettlebell swing variations are explained in as much detail as you need to know.

With a specific purpose on your part that you tell us about, we might be able to be more specific in our guidance to you. Otherwise, S&S for general health and fitness and strength and strength-endurance and the what-the-heck carryover effect and just plain awesomeness.

-S-

 

[Xcal]

A secondary factors is where an individual decides to take their foot off the gas and allow the Kettlebell to float.

I forgot where I read this: it is a good practice to vary the height of the swings occasionally (weekly/daily/ 1 rep in a set?). This will give you better understanding of controlling both your hinge and the float. what do you heavy lifters say?

I like doing this with my 12+16kg bells for a couple of reps in each practice session e.g. I usually do 145 swings/session, and probably play with the height for 10-20 swings.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The kind of swings discussed in the "Are Heavy Swings Better Than Deadlifts" article is an advanced application of the kettlebell swing that no one ever needs to do

Heavy Kettlebell Swings

This is not an advanced movement.

As the research demonstrates, Heavier Swings are more effective in the development of Power.

For someone who's interest is with increasing Power Development, the use of a Heavier Swing that is necessary.

Thus, "No one ever needs to do" Heavy Swing if they are not intersted in optimal Power Development.

perhaps, you are using heavy swings to take the place of deadlifts,

Auxiliary Deadlift Exercise

A Heavy Kettlebell Swing is not meant to take the place of the Deadlift.

Heavy Kettlebell Swings are a great Auxiliary Exercise for the Deadlift.

Research has demonstrated that a Synertictic Effect is obtained when differnt types of Strength Training are included in a well written pdrogram.

Information has previously been posted on this: The Westside Powerlifting Method, Olympic Lifting Method, Dr Michael Zourdos' Resarch and Dr Brad Schoenfeld's all demonstrated the Syneretictic Effect.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

it is a good practice to vary the height of the swings occasionally

Varying An Exercise Movement

Research shows that one of the keys to increasing Strength and Size/Muscle Mass is to Varying Exercises.

Varying the Height of the Swing fall into that catagory. Muscle Involvement changes with the load and height of the Swing.

 

[Steve Freides]

Heavy Kettlebell Swings

This is not an advanced movement.

As the research demonstrates, Heavier Swings are more effective in the development of Power.

For someone who's interest is with increasing Power Development, the use of a Heavier Swing that is necessary.

Thus, "No one ever needs to do" Heavy Swing if they are not interested in optimal Power Development.

If one is doing kettlebells swings for their what-the-heck effect, as I believe many of us are, including me, the kettlebell swing as described in S&S, which is not the 200 lb kind I think of when I think of "heavy" swings, just isn't necessary. Power-endurance, as opposed to "optimal" power, is also a fine goal that serves many health and fitness goals.

A Heavy Kettlebell Swing is not meant to take the place of the Deadlift.

I believe it's used to take the place of speed deadlifts in some programs.

-S-

 

[WxHerk]

@GreenSoup, too much thinking and not enough swinging.

Agreed.

"Do not try to swing it higher! Like a broad jump or a straight punch, the swing is an exercise in projecting power forward."



-S-

This!!

One executes a proper swing by SNAPPING his/her hips to throw the bell forward, not up.

Trying to raise the bell can easily bring the arms too much into the equation and "scooping," which endangers the lower back. When someone claims the swing hurts his/her lower back you can usually trace it back to this.

Allow me to brag, but I filmed @Anna C swinging that 68kg bell. You notice that she snaps perfectly, but the bell doesn't quite get to chest height!! I kiddingly said "nice float" since we were sharing the video with @Al Ciampa

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

If one is doing kettlebells swings for their what-the-heck effect,

What-The-Heck-Effect

I am a proponet of employing a movement that has an objective.

Doing What-The-Heck-Effect isn't a plan.

However, if it makes feel good...

the kettlebell swing as described in S&S, which is not the 200 lb kind I think of when I think of "heavy" swings,

200 lb Swings

Your making things up as you go. How did you come up with 200 lb Swings.

Obviously, it did not come from the information that I presented on...

Power Swing Data

The research data on where the Power Output Range indicted that Power Kettlebell Swing fell between 30. to 70% of a lifter Body Weight.

just isn't necessary.

Necessity

Individual not interested in increasing Power don't need to perform Swing with Heavier Ketttlebell Swings.

Power-endurance, as opposed to "optimal" power, is also a fine goal that serves many health and fitness goals.

Power Endurance

Endurance Training with any movement means that a lighter load is used.

Kettlebell Endurance Swing are an effective High Resistance Intenty Training Protocol.

I believe it's used to take the place of speed deadlifts in some programs.

Speed Deadlifts vs Power Kettlebell Swing

Speed Deadlifts are a minomer. The load used in most "Speed Deadlifts" increase Power, more so than Speed.

Kettlebell Swings, as the data provided by Contreras, demonstatate the greater Power Output is developed with it comparative to "Speed"(Power) Deadlifts".

The Deadlift, regardless of the load, is a poor choice for optimally developing Power.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Trying to raise the bell can easily bring the arms too much into the equation and "scooping," which endangers the lower back

Hyperextension of The Lower Back

Scooping modifies the Kettlebell Swing into a different exercise.

The Scoop does not create back issues unless the Lower Back is Hyperextened.

GHD Ball Toss (Post 9)

Other/Mixed - GHD Ball Toss -- WTH?

No, seriously. WTH? Even though I don't always agree with it, I thought I understood CrossFit's methodology and philosophy as it relates to things like endurance, power, mobility, etc, exhibited across different domains like rowing, running, gymnastics, calisthenics, weightlifting, etc. But I...

www.strongfirst.com

Lower Back Hperextension was addressed in the post.

 

[Anna C]

You notice that she snaps perfectly, but the bell doesn't quite get to chest height!! I kiddingly said "nice float" since we were sharing the video with @Al Ciampa

I'm curious what I could do with it these days. I did get a PR power clean of 69 kg recently!

 

[watchnerd]

I'm hard pressed to think of any training goal where a 200 lb kettlebell swing would be preferable to a 90 kg power clean.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm curious what I could do with it these days. I did get a PR power clean of 69 kg recently!

Nice!

Did you get new shoes?

I don't remember you wearing the Rom 4s before.

 

[Steve Freides]

What-The-Heck-Effect

I am a proponet of employing a movement that has an objective.

Doing What-The-Heck-Effect isn't a plan.

It's a plan, alright. I understand that it's not the type of plan some people are used to, but look at how many people say practicing S&S makes so many things better. There's no way I'd have time to even begin to make that list. It's a plan. I have cited my own benefits in a number of previous posts before - want me to list them again here?

200 lb Swings

Your making things up as you go. How did you come up with 200 lb Swings.

Obviously, it did not come from the information that I presented on...

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swing Better Than Deadlifts

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?

Heavy kettlebell swings could be the best damn posterior chain exercise you're not doing, possibly even better than deadlifts! Here's why.

www.t-nation.com

From the article you cited:



Heavy a#@ Kettlebell Swings (HAKS)

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

It's a plan, alright.

Next state that it's a plan rather than a What The Heck Effect Training.

want me to list them again here?

Sure, if that will make you feel better.

From the article you cited:

So, based on what Contreras used with his Heavy Kettlebell Swing you entrepreted it to mean everyone should work up to 200 lbs. At least you read the article.

Base on the informationt that I presented, Heavy Swings Ranges are in part determimed as a percentage of your body weight.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Kenny Croxdale, in no particular order:

So, based on what Contreras used with his Heavy Kettlebell Swing you entrepreted it to mean everyone should work up to 200 lbs. At least you read the article.

It's a 10-year-old article I've read more than once, thank you.

Next state that it's a plan rather than a What The Heck Effect Training.

You can try to tell me many things, but I am content with how I express myself, thank you.

This has become argumentative and I will decline to participate further, thank you.

-S-

 

[bencrush]

Weight Determines Height

As you realize the a major determinate of the height of the swing is the weight of the Kettlebells.

A secondary factors is where an individual decides to take their foot off the gas and allow the Kettlebell to float.

Kettlebell Swing Are A Power Movement.

Using the Kettlebell Swing to increase strength amount to using a crescent wrench to drive a nail. It works to some degreee.

However, a hammer is more effective for drving nails.

The Take Home Message



In other word, use the right tool for the job.

Light Kettlebell Swings

A lighter Kettlebell is allowed to float eariler and farther in The Swings.

Doing so, limited the range in which Power is elicited and developed.

Heavy Kettlebell Swings

With a heavier Kettlebell Swing, Power is elicted and developed in a greater range of The Swing.

Kettlebell Power Swings

Power is most effectively developed when it is kept within a certain range.

Science of The Swings

Science of the Swing

...and many other movements.

scienceoftheswing.blogspot.com

This artrticle and the graph below deterermined that Power was most effective developed with a Kettlebell that was around 30% of the lifter's body weight.


View attachment 16970

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swing Better Than Deadlifts

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?

Heavy kettlebell swings could be the best damn posterior chain exercise you're not doing, possibly even better than deadlifts! Here's why.

www.t-nation.com

Dr Bret Contreras determined Power Output was most effective developed with heaveir loads.

Style	Load (lbs)	Peak Vertical Force (N)	Peak Horizontal Force (N)
Squat Style	70	2,170-2,349	166-182
Squat Style	140	2,431-2,444	278-353
Hip Hinge Style	70	1,935-2,140	340-402
Hip Hinge Style	140	2,325-2,550	499-520

Another Method

Another method of ensuring Power is developed through a greater range of the movement is Banded Kettlebell Swings.

Dr. Craig Marker Demonstration



Banded Kettlebell Swings allow a lifter develop Power through a greater Range of the movement.

Heavier Low Kettlebell Swings



Heavier Lower Swing are going increase Power and Strength to a greater degree in the Posterior Chain.

Lighter Kettlebell Swing are less effective at increasing Power in the Posterior Chain.

Anna's 68 kg/150 lb Swing

This demonstrate Contreras research on performing Heavier Kettlebells Swings.

Anna Swinging the 68kg

Anna deftly handles a kettlebell 10lbs less than her bodyweight. Well done!!

www.youtube.com

Summary

1) Kettlebell Swings are a Power Movement.

2) Power is optimally developed with load of 30% to 70% plus of Body Weight.

3) Banded Kettlebell Swing ensure Power is developed through a greater range of the movement.

@Kenny Croxdale I always appreciate your thoughtful responses!