Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Multiple reps in a short time period?
Kettlebell Float height for maximum kettlebell swing strength training
- Thread starter GreenSoup
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BJJ Shawn
Level 6 Valued Member
I don't know about goal, but for me it would be more about the easy technique. Learning to clean is not as easy as doing a swing. I simply don't have the mobility in my shoulders/elbows to hold a front rack position, but I can pick up and swing a heavy object without learning any new techniques.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
How many?
ATP energy for max power doesn't last that long.
Power Clean doubles and triples have been a staple of Division 1 sports training for decades.
But if you're doing lots of reps, trying to train max power....you aren't really training max power.
You might be training power-endurance.
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watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Swings are easier technique, for sure.
But it's not the same effort, as the swing has a conservation of energy element due to the pendulum nature.
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Thanks! I got the shoes a while back, about when I got the Olympic lifting barbell. Both were a great improvement!
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I've been looking for something to replace my circa 2015 AdiPowers that doesn't have such a narrow toe box.
I got some Do Wins, which are wider, but otherwise don't feel as well made as the Adidas or Nikes.
But finding any Romaleos in my size has been a lost cause, unless I want to rock Mt Dew green.
I had Addidas and DoWins, and like these Romaleos MUCH better than either of those.
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
To be honest, as I've admitted before (which in itself is not good reason) I know nothing about Olympic lifting. So thank you for the information.
I watched Anna's video and noted the time to perform one barbell clean versus the time to do one swing.
It seemed to stack up when I asked.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Ah, interesting, I wasn't thinking of time to perform the movement.
I was referring to the time to replenish ATP supply after depleting it.
My current max Power Clean (not full clean) is 97 kg.
I can't do more than 2, sequentially.
If I try for a 3rd, I'll miss the lift.
Because it sucks up all my ATP to do 2 and I have to rest to refill the ATP tank.
Comrademode
Level 2 Valued Member
As the probable 300lb swinger in question, you may be thinking about this too hard. That set was for fun. Also, you'd probably be surprised how much 'partial' reps can help you with your overall strength. Go do a cycle of rack pulls mixed in with your usual deadlift training, you'll probably progress well. Go try some heavy overweighted swings without thinking too hard about how high an intentionally overloaded swing is gonna go, then try out your normal weight swings again, they'll probably be easier.
If I wanted to get a heavy bell as high as I could, I would probably just snatch the 48KG, like I usually do & if I wanted to be really explosive, I'd just load my 260 sandbag over my yoke like I have been lol. I know it feels good to judge how someone is moving because you want to feel 'right', but there's a lot more right ways to move, as the article you linked from Reifkind seems to indicate. Also for what it is worth, Dan John seemed to like my swings when I passed the RKC II lol.
If I wanted to get a heavy bell as high as I could, I would probably just snatch the 48KG, like I usually do & if I wanted to be really explosive, I'd just load my 260 sandbag over my yoke like I have been lol. I know it feels good to judge how someone is moving because you want to feel 'right', but there's a lot more right ways to move, as the article you linked from Reifkind seems to indicate. Also for what it is worth, Dan John seemed to like my swings when I passed the RKC II lol.
GreenSoup
Level 6 Valued Member
I have been learning a lot here. Thank you everyone.
To clarify my goal of "swing strength" I mean this: Strength training is my video game replacement so knowing I can swing 10x10 EMOM with my 32kg to shoulder height it might be fun to go farther with the kettlebells I already own. I have no barbell ambitions, no sports, and no need to lift anything heavier than household goods. Heavy swings just sounded like something cool I could do so increasing the weight sounded like "swing strength" as the goal in my head.
From the tips in the replies it seems I should want to do the following:
-Use a band for extra heaviness/distribution of applied force (as a different way of going heavier)
-Review the S&S descriptions so my double swings stick to the rules (especially forward force projection)
@Anna C that is a very impressive swing. The plank in comparison with the ankle extension shows it was definitely not an everyday feat of strength!
@Kenny Croxdale I'm not sure I can synthesize what those two articles said. One suggested 30% BW was best for power. The other said heavy and near 100% bodyweight is better for power. So are they in conflict? Did I misunderstand them?
Perhaps the best comment about my post was from @Steve Freides:
Not that I want to keep overthinking it, but there is something I have been thinking about...
Considering the "SFG Clock" my double kettlebell work goes to 7 o’clock instead of 8 o'clock on the hike pass, which is recommended in the article for single kettlebells. Is 7 o'clock just a function of double KBs hitting mid-leg rather than nearer to the hip?
My current plan is to review my form, focus on snapping to the plank with forward projection, and to start with 16+24 because I know I can do it comfortably with that weight for a few weeks. From that there I will experiment with the 32+16 and see how the ride takes me to the 32+24.
To clarify my goal of "swing strength" I mean this: Strength training is my video game replacement so knowing I can swing 10x10 EMOM with my 32kg to shoulder height it might be fun to go farther with the kettlebells I already own. I have no barbell ambitions, no sports, and no need to lift anything heavier than household goods. Heavy swings just sounded like something cool I could do so increasing the weight sounded like "swing strength" as the goal in my head.
From the tips in the replies it seems I should want to do the following:
-Use a band for extra heaviness/distribution of applied force (as a different way of going heavier)
-Review the S&S descriptions so my double swings stick to the rules (especially forward force projection)
@Anna C that is a very impressive swing. The plank in comparison with the ankle extension shows it was definitely not an everyday feat of strength!
@Kenny Croxdale I'm not sure I can synthesize what those two articles said. One suggested 30% BW was best for power. The other said heavy and near 100% bodyweight is better for power. So are they in conflict? Did I misunderstand them?
Perhaps the best comment about my post was from @Steve Freides:
Not that I want to keep overthinking it, but there is something I have been thinking about...
The SFG Clock—A Guide for the Swing, Clean, and Snatch | StrongFirst
Do you have a clear picture of where the kettlebell should be going in the swing, clean or snatch? The SFG Clock will show you the way.
www.strongfirst.com
My current plan is to review my form, focus on snapping to the plank with forward projection, and to start with 16+24 because I know I can do it comfortably with that weight for a few weeks. From that there I will experiment with the 32+16 and see how the ride takes me to the 32+24.
GreenSoup
Level 6 Valued Member
@Comrademode I apologize for the negativity of the comment on the 300lb swing video. I should have had the forethought to consider that if someone cares enough about swinging to attempt it with 300 pounds that he probably has accumulated a lot of admirable strength skills too.
The bell and the ability of the trainee to produce power determines the swing height.
Enjoy the training benefits . The only situations we have to truly be strict about swing height
1. Safety is severely compromised
2. Testing for instructors
Enjoy the training benefits . The only situations we have to truly be strict about swing height
1. Safety is severely compromised
2. Testing for instructors
Comrademode
Level 2 Valued Member
It's fine. I mean it was rude but it's fine, I'm used to stuff like this happening at this point when I do anything that's not perfect hardstyle and I post it to reddit LOL. Next time if you have a question just ask me on the post itself, I answer like virtually every comment I get there.
Aside from that, I wish you luck in your training, if you expand your swing & movement horizons a bit, I bet you'd be surprised at how nicely you progress. You've got this!
GreenSoup
Level 6 Valued Member
I do not even know if I owned kettlebells at the time I originally saw the 300lb swing video, let alone being able to find it again to comment there. In the video I recall the arms did not leave contact with the stomach. From what little I knew about kettlebells it just seemed wrong.
It's actually too bad that you are accustomed to people commenting rudely on posts like that because as you stated here this useful as a heavily overloaded partial movement, a legitimate and thoughtful strength tactic. I simply did not know enough to get it until now. I will be extra conscious to make sure my next posts are more considerate and change the internet for the better.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Percentage Range
Yes, one artilce provided a percentage.
The other provide the poundage used rather than the percentage; which make it a litte unclear.
I extrapolated the poundage used with Contraras into a general percentage to provide contest. A general guideline on that percentage was around 70%.
Strength Training Percentages
Training Percentages, along with the number of repetitions and rest periods between sets, dictate which type of Strength Training an individual is performing/Training.
There percentages provide ranges for individual as a guideline.
Pevious Kettlebell Swing Power Output Research
Pervious reseach determine that there wasn't much Power Output with Kettlebell Swings. That due to the fact that the load of the Kettlebell Swing was heavy enough to register higher Power Ouput reading.
Contreras' research determined that when Heavier Swings are performed, the Power Output rivals that of Olympic Lift moevements.
Olympic Lifter have some of the the highest Power Outputs, if not the highest, measured.
Take Home Message
Kettlebells Swing are an effective method of developing Power, providing the right load is used.
Kettlebell Swing Endurance is an effective method of performing HIRT, High Intensity Reistance Training; the weight/resistance form of High Intensity Interval Training.
While some Power is developed with Kettlebell Swing Endurance, the Power Output produced and developed is lower than with a Kettlebell Swing Power Training Method.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
10 Year Old
What does this have to do with it?
Read More Than Once
At least you read it, many don't.
In re-reading something, you find thing that you missed the first time.
However, I it doen't appear that you obtain much from reading it again.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
300 Kettlebell Swings
From the few videos that I have seen with loads of 300 bls, none of them looked good.
So, a 300 lb Kettlebell Swing is quetionable.
Contreras' Swing with 203 lbs/92 kg is something that I cannot endorse
This take us back to...
Strength Training Percentages
Power Output is best displayed with certain Training Percentage Loads.
Examples
1)Traditional Strength Training Exercises
Power with these exercises (Squats, Bench Press, Deadlifts) are between 48-62% of 1 Repetition Max.
2) Olympic Lift Movements
Power is optimally displayed with loads of 70-80% of 1 Retition Max.
3) Kettlebell Swings
It difficult to perform a 1 Reptiton Max Kettlebell Swing.
Thus, the Training Percentage based on Body Weight appear provide the guidelines.
The Push Band
The Push Band provide more accurate feedback on the Power Output in a Kettlebell Swing.
Power Factor
Over 10 years ago, I purchased the Power Factor to determing Power Output.
It is comparative to Bathroom Scales. As with Bathroom scales it provides you with a fairly accurate reading with a small plus/minus factor of error.
The Power Factor worked well for measuring measuring the Power Output of Traditional Strength movments.
Great Demonstration of Heavy Kettlebell Swings
The Poster Children for them are...
1) Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/203 lbs.
I posted Ciampa Swing with this but the video has dissappeared.
2) Anna's Heavy 68kg/150 lb Swing
Anna Swinging the 68kg
Anna deftly handles a kettlebell 10lbs less than her bodyweight. Well done!!
www.youtube.com
Anna provides a great demonstration on Heavy Kettlebell Swing.
It is going into my library of Training Information.
Overloaded Swings
The loading in this movement fall more into Maxium Strength Training; the load is too heavy for Power Development.
Post Activation Potentiation Training. PAP
This is the the method that you elucing to.
The PAP Protocol eccentrially Super Sets a Strength Movement with a Power and/or Speed Movement.
When a fairly Heavy Movement is performed first, followed by a Power and/or Speed Movement; greater force is produced in the Power and/or Speed Movement.
The Strength Movement needs to be fairly heavy but not not too heavy. If it too heavy it dampens or negate the ablity to produce force in a Powser and/or Speed Movement.
A Rest Period between the Strength Movement and Power and/or Speed Movement of more than a minute, ensure greatet force Production.
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GreenSoup
Level 6 Valued Member
Since virtually every kettlebell swing program has someone able to do 10+ swings, often even with the heaviest weights that could go for 30 seconds or more, I have to wonder why the trainee's body weight is a factor in both tests. With barbell exercises it is expected the trainee gets stronger so the 1RM changes. Presuming a trainee starts out somewhat lean, kettlebells are not going to change anyone's body weight as significantly as a barbell 1RM could change with years of dedicated training.
I wonder if it is just a lack of study with kettlebells relative to barbells. It would be my suspicion that kettlebell ballistics would have the same benefits and training methods as barbell ballistics, presuming the same goals. Or they would if the 1RM could be measured accurately.
rwleonard
Level 7 Valued Member
If strength is your goal, this guy might know something:
You can find videos of him doing swings and they go to about the waist/sternum level.
Kettlebells and Deadlifting: A Match Made in Heaven? | StrongFirst
There are many excellent exercises with a kettlebell, but I have stuck to the two-hand swing. As an assistance exercise for deadlifting it is amazing.
www.strongfirst.com
You can find videos of him doing swings and they go to about the waist/sternum level.
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