Kettlebell Float height for maximum kettlebell swing strength training

[Kenny Croxdale]

every kettlebell swing program has someone able to do 10+ swings, often even with the heaviest weights that could go for 30 seconds or more,

Inverse Relationship

As the time or number or repetition in a movement goes up there is decrease in force production: a decrease in Power and Strength.

Research and anectodal data have demonstrated that.

See Saw

Think of time and repetition being on one side of a See Saw and Strength, Power and Speed on the other end.

Wnen time or repetition go up, Strength, Power and Speed go down.

When time and repetition down, Strength, Power and Speed go up.

Strength, Power and Speed

All three of these Strengths fall into the Phosphagen (ATP) Energy System.

ATP is expended in 10 - 15 seconds, usually less. When that occurs, force production in all three of these Strength drops like a rock.

Repetitions

All three of these Strength utilizes that same Guidlines.

Repetition of 5 or less per set are the Guidlines for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Training due that ATP Muscle Depletion.

The Difference In Training Percentages

1) Maximum Strength Training: 85% of 1 Repetition Max

2) Power

a) Traditional Strength Training Power Movements: 48-62% of 1 Reptition Max.

b) Olympic Lift Movements: 70-80% of 1 Repetition Max.

3) Speed Training; 10-40% of 1 Repetition Max with approximately 30% being the Sweet Spot.

10 Repetition Per Set or 30 Second Or More

The first few repetition, around 3, are going to produce the greatest Power Output.

The first 10 seconds or less of a movement are going to produce the great Power Output.

Power Output drops with each repetiton past the third Repetition or past 10 seconds.

The Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber

The Fast Twich Fiber are not longer firing, being trained nor developed when repetitions or time extend beyond the above limits.

There is a shift from Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber firing to Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

There is a shift from Power and Strength Development to Endurance Development.

Presuming a trainee starts out somewhat lean, kettlebells are not going to change anyone's body weight as significantly as a barbell 1RM could change with years of dedicated training.

Gaining Body Weight

Gaining weight will occur with Kettlebells as well as Barbells, any type of Resistance Training, as long a well written and applied Hypertrophy Training Program is adheared to.

I wonder if it is just a lack of study with kettlebells relative to barbells.

That might be part of it.

It would be my suspicion that kettlebell ballistics would have the same benefits and training methods as barbell ballistics, presuming the same goals.

Kettlebell Swings Misnomer

Keettlebell Swing are a Quzi-Ballistic Movement.

Ballistic Training invoves an object or the body going airborne.

What Is Ballistic Training?

Ballistic Training

Ballistic training is an effective training method to improve an athlete's power output, and therefore, their speed and jump height.

www.scienceforsport.com

"The term ballistic refers to a method of training, where the athletes’ body or an external object is explosively projected into a flight phase [31] and can, therefore, include exercises such as jumps, throws, or strikes."

Plyometric Bench Press Training

Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

I am very interested in this. When I plateau with linear progression, I plan on using chains, bands, and stick-weights/small-weights to break over. But I also was thinking of plyometric stuff. I really like the medicine ball drops in the article below. Has anyone done these or similar...

www.elitefitness.com

The National Strength and Conditioning Association's Basic Guidelines for the Resistance Training of Athletes states that "performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weights (e.g., 30-45% of 1RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but rather teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down. If the load can be released into the air (i.e., the bar can be let go at the end of the range of motion), the negative effects are eliminated.

The Same Applies To Kettlebell Swings

The same occurs when the Kettlebell is allowed to Foat (decelerate) in a Swing.

Power is developed in the limited range where accelertion occured, not druing the deceleration.

Or they would if the 1RM could be measured accurately.

Measuring Kettlebell Swing Power Output

As you mentioned, there is a wide gap in the Power Training in the Swing using a Percentage of Body Weight.

Using a Push Band most likely is a much better method of measuring and calulating the load percentage that would be the most effective.

 

[Anna C]

I have to wonder why the trainee's body weight is a factor in both tests. With barbell exercises it is expected the trainee gets stronger so the 1RM changes.

I agree. After seeing how Oly/weightlifters' performance has MUCH more to do with training age (how long they have been seriously training in the sport), training programming, technique, setback avoidance, actual age, body anthropometry and overall size, nutrition, recovery, and mental approach.... as opposed to bodyweight (which is still a factor but much less so, at least until elite level is reached and all those other things are optimized to the degree that they can be).... I don't really see that the kettlebell as a percentage of bodyweight can be any more meaningful than a very rough guide for a moderately trained demographic.

 

[TimothyGander]

I wonder if it is just a lack of study with kettlebells relative to barbells. It would be my suspicion that kettlebell ballistics would have the same benefits and training methods as barbell ballistics, presuming the same goals.

I think there hasn't been much interest in training kettlebell ballistics like the Olympic moves, that is, with low reps, heavy weight and emphasis on power rather than conditioning. I don't think swings could be of much use for that kind of programming due to their lack of clear failure criteria, but cleans, snatches and jerks likely would.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

there hasn't been much interest in training kettlebell ballistics like the Olympic moves, that is, with low reps, heavy weight and emphasis on power rather than conditioning.

Lack of Knowledge

The lack of interest most likely stems from a Lack of Knowledge.

Not knowing the amount of Power Output that can be produced and developed with Heavy Swings. Nor how to train them.

Cost of Heavy Kettlebells

Also, the cost effectiveness in purchaing Heavier Kettlebells that are only primarily used for just Heavy Kettlebell Swings.

The soluting for that is the Hungarian Core Blaster. Just over $20 worth of pipe from Lowes and some weight plastes is all you need.

The assmebly of the Hungarian Core Blater pipe takes less than 5 minutes.

I've loaded mine up to 170 lb for Swings.

I don't think swings could be of much use for that kind of programming due to their lack of clear failure criteria, but cleans, snatches and jerks likely would.

Failure Criteria?

What does this mean?

Kettlebell Swing Vs Clean, Snatches and Jerks

Each elicite a different Training Effect.

Horizonal Power Training

Kettlebell Swing work the Horizontal Power Component.

Vertical Power Training

Cleans, Snatches and Jerks work the Vertical Power Component.

Sports Training

Each will contribut to increasing Power for Sports, providing the right Training Percentage is used in a well written program.

However, the Movement in the Sport determined which (Kettlebell Swings or Olmpic Movement) one is the most applicable.

Example

1) Basketball Players: Vertical Power Olympic Lift Movements.

2) Broad Jumpers: Horizontal Power Kettlebell Swings

 

[Pete L]

Since virtually every kettlebell swing program has someone able to do 10+ swings, often even with the heaviest weights that could go for 30 seconds or more

I wouldn't agree with that statement.
Both Q&D and KB-SF protocols are based on 5 reps.

 

[Steve Freides]

I have to wonder why the trainee's body weight is a factor in both tests. With barbell exercises it is expected the trainee gets stronger so the 1RM changes. Presuming a trainee starts out somewhat lean, kettlebells are not going to change anyone's body weight as significantly as a barbell 1RM could change with years of dedicated training.

In the original RKC book, Pavel cites a study that, if memory serves, showed that 22% of kettlebell ballistic trainees gained weight while exactly the same percentage, 22%, lost weight.

I think there hasn't been much interest in training kettlebell ballistics like the Olympic moves, that is, with low reps, heavy weight and emphasis on power rather than conditioning. I don't think swings could be of much use for that kind of programming due to their lack of clear failure criteria, but cleans, snatches and jerks likely would.

Kettlebell ballistics are really their own thing. I'm not sure anyone completely understands what's so magical about them, but there is something magical in doing swings or snatches the way we do them here at StrongFirst. And the combination of a kettlebell ballistic and a grind, e.g., S&S, or the ROP, really does help so many different kinds of people in such a variety of activities.

-S-

 

[psmith]

Has anyone poasted Alec Enkiri yet? Dude goes heavy as hell, ignores ROM concerns, seems to have pretty good results: You Don't Know How To Swing

(Edit: also, barbell cleans and pulls of all heights from the hang are of course a real neato mosquito, but as per his article you don't get nearly the same stretch on the posterior chain at the bottom as you can with a swing.).

 

[Steve Freides]

Has anyone poasted Alec Enkiri yet? Dude goes heavy as hell, ignores ROM concerns, seems to have pretty good results: You Don't Know How To Swing

(Edit: also, barbell cleans and pulls of all heights from the hang are of course a real neato mosquito, but as per his article you don't get nearly the same stretch on the posterior chain at the bottom as you can with a swing.).

I took a quick look at your link - seems fine and in keeping with what we do around here. I have nothing against heavy swings, I just think the magic for most people, most of the time lies in doing them along the lines of S&S. Heavier than that and they serve more specific purposes in my mind.

-S-

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Just to ruffle some feathers:

 

[watchnerd]

(Edit: also, barbell cleans and pulls of all heights from the hang are of course a real neato mosquito, but as per his article you don't get nearly the same stretch on the posterior chain at the bottom as you can with a swing.).

If I want to get a big stretch on the posterior chain, I do Romanian Deadlifts.

Swings are neat for hamstring pumps, but I've always gotten even more results from RDLs.

And I can go much, much heavier, and the movement pattern (vertical) translates better to SN / C&J.

 

[watchnerd]

I think there hasn't been much interest in training kettlebell ballistics like the Olympic moves, that is, with low reps, heavy weight and emphasis on power rather than conditioning. I don't think swings could be of much use for that kind of programming due to their lack of clear failure criteria, but cleans, snatches and jerks likely would.

I don't know why one would use a KB for low reps / heavy weight ballistics when the barbell offers so many advantages in terms of progressive overload and, ultimately, max weight.

Let KBs be KBs and the right tool for what they're best at --- high rep, moderate weight ballistics.

If you want to go low rep, heavy ballistic, use a barbell.

Pick the right tool for the job.

 

[Pete L]

I don't know why one would use a KB for low reps / heavy weight ballistics when the barbell offers so many advantages in terms of progressive overload and, ultimately, max weight.

Let KBs be KBs and the right tool for what they're best at --- high rep, moderate weight ballistics.

If you want to go low rep, heavy ballistic, use a barbell.

Pick the right tool for the job.

@watchnerd
Is 5 reps in the "low rep" or "high rep" bracket?
Or do you mean total reps, e.g. 10 to 20 versus several hundred?

I'm specifically thinking of KB-SF swing protocol which can be in the 50 to 300 total rep range. But the sets are 5 reps.

 

[Xcal]

This is a very interesting and divisive discussion quite enjoyable, specifically because it is generally respectful. here's my 2c, with respect.

external object is explosively projected into a flight phase [31]

I do 1H swings and change hands in-flight. The KB literally flying for a moment, not supported by me all. This technically fits your description.
also, even without the in-flight switch, I would say that the top-of-the-float can be considered a moment of true flight *if* the practitioner truly relaxes their entire body as intended (I believe this to be the intention: a standing plank in full relaxation)

The same occurs when the Kettlebell is allowed to Foat (decelerate) in a Swing...Power is developed in the limited range where accelertion occured, not druing the deceleration.

PavelT says (somewhere) that the deceleration should be actively encouraged by your lats. so the hip-hinge powerfully thrusts the KB into an arc that "wants" to go high above your shoulders, then you powerfully engage your lats at the right moment to decelerate and force a float at the correct height, shoulder/chest/etc (I like the variety of choosing a particular height every so often)

why one would use a KB for low reps / heavy weight ballistics

the simplest reason: 1 tool to rule them all. I can travel by car with 1 KB, my vibram 5fingers running shoes, and train almost anywhere. The trick is to always be working towards to the correct KB weight....ok 2 tools because I run and KB as of this year...my vibrams handily squish into the KB handle during travel storage

 

[Xcal]

You Don't Know How To Swing

This guy is using normal running shows in his swing video. for me: this is immediate red flag for a social-media influencer versus a social media trainer....I learnt this from watching TOO MUCH of Lebe Stark

ok, he does have 1 pic in flat shoes.

My comment aside: he is/was RIPPED like I will never be in 5 lifetimes!

 

[Comrademode]

This guy is using normal running shows in his swing video. for me: this is immediate red flag for a social-media influencer versus a social media trainer....I learnt this from watching TOO MUCH of Lebe Stark

ok, he does have 1 pic in flat shoes.

My comment aside: he is/was RIPPED like I will never be in 5 lifetimes!

Alek Enkiri is the real deal. He’s gone up on the Powerlifting Podium & competed. He’s not an ‘influencer’ in the way that Lebe Stark likes to rag on. His programming & technique are both legit regardless of the shoes he’s wearing. I used some of his progressions to get a 160lb client of mine to press 32KG x 5 both sides inn his first year of KB training - so he’s the real deal.

—

As for the greater discussion, I can’t help but feel like everyone is talking past each other.

Swing height is a goal that you can program for. A belt height swing is just as legit as a to the shoulder swing depending on what you’re going for. It for sure looks cooler to get a KB to your shoulder in a swing but that only matters as far as you want to do that. I personally don’t care about that, and when you go 80+ pounds over your bodyweight you physically can’t do that anyways, so I only swing as high as the hip hinge I’m performing pushes the bell. I’m doing fine, & I just trap bar deadlifted & frame carried 605 the other day so something about these waist high swings seems to be helping.

 

[TimothyGander]

Failure Criteria?

What does this mean?

I meant that it's not easy to distinguish what constitutes a "failed" swing (as evidenced by this very discussion), and so it's hard to talk about swings in terms of RM. For example, if I say 32 kg is my two-armed swing 10RM, does it mean that I literally couldn't do eleven swings with that weight, or that the eleventh swing would be less powerful, or go only to stomach height... Meanwhile, cleans, jerks and snatches have clear failure criteria - if a kettlebell has failed to rack, it's a failed rep.

I don't know why one would use a KB for low reps / heavy weight ballistics when the barbell offers so many advantages in terms of progressive overload and, ultimately, max weight.

I don't think the max weight issue is really relevant to a GPP trainee, if we consider your example of 90 kg power snatch. That's less than two 48 kg kettlebells - and someone who could do that would likely need considerably less weight in a double kettlebell clean with no knee dip. And it's not like kettlebells heavier than 48 don't exist.

As for the why: first, the convenience (from a perspective of someone already lifting kettlebells for GPP) of continuing to use the same (or nearly the same) lifts, just with different programming, as opposed to (continuing) cost, energy and time needed for acquiring and learning to use a different tool with a different, specific technique. Second is superiority of the kettlebell in many aspects: impact on the wrists (strenghtening as opposed to overstretching), lower flexibility/mobility requirement, more comfortable rack position, more stabilization challenge, better ergonomics... put simply, I don't think the benefits of kettlebell training suddenly disappear when a certain weight is achieved.

 

[Comrademode]

300 Kettlebell Swings

From the few videos that I have seen with loads of 300 bls, none of them looked good.

So, a 300 lb Kettlebell Swing is quetionable.

Contreras' Swing with 203 lbs/92 kg is something that I cannot endorse

An interesting read but we’re talking past each other. I’m not training for power, I’m training to win my next strongman competition in the under 200’s category. I need better conditioning under load, so heavy KB swings are a great choice.

My ‘power’ gets trained when I press sprints with 200+ Axles & load heavy sandbags. Kettlebell swing is not a tested event & I just use the 2H swing as a conditioning tool. I like going heavy on them, and generally speaking during my conditioning sessions I’ll swing 225 to my chest, but when I start getting tired, that height starts to drop. I get the work done anyway.

That’s why I was saying intent matters. I get what you’re going for, but I was swinging 300 regardless of the perspective of the coach of your choice.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I do 1H swings and change hands in-flight. The KB literally flying for a moment, not supported by me all. This technically fits your description.
also, even without the in-flight switch,

1 Hand Swings Changing Hands

To ensure that Power is developed through the greatest range of the movement would require pulling the Kettlebell as high as possible; maintaining the contraction for a long as possible.

Performing it with one hand instead of two is probably going to limit the size of the Kettbell use and Power Output.

I preformed this type of Kettlebell Swing. It provides a unique training effect. However, I am not sure exactly what type of training effect is elicited with it.

I would say that the top-of-the-float can be considered a moment of true flight *if* the practitioner truly relaxes their entire body as intended

This is something that goes what you mentioned relaxing...

Pulse Training

One of the beneifts relaxtion with Swings that Change Hands and Traditonal Kettlebell Swings.

This pervious post touches on Pulse Training...

The Principles of Contract-Relax-Contract

Kettlebell - Abs during swings

Is it right to keep the abs tight throughout the swing? I know to tense at the plank, but I think that keeping tight throughout can protect the lower back. Does this hinder the swing?

www.strongfirst.com

Research by Dr Stu McGill has demonstrated the this method allows greater force to be produced.

Tip: 3 Little-Known Ways to Improve Athleticism

Not many people talk about these methods for getting faster and more powerful. Let's fix that.

www.t-nation.com

The kettlebell swing can be used for developing the skill of pulsing contraction followed by rapid relaxation. Here's how:

• A burst of energy or "pulse" is used to begin the swing.
• Once the swing is around chest height, rapid relaxation must occur to re-hinge the hips and guide the kettlebell back between the legs.
• Another pulsed contraction is used to start the beginning of the next swing.
• Then the kettlebell swings go in a continuous cycle of turning on and turning off certain musculature in the right sequence to create pulsing contractions. That develops the ability to produce power.

I like the variety of choosing a particular height every so often)

Varing The Height

Variance in the height of the Swing is optimally obtain by increasing the bell Size/Weight.

It similar to Olympic Lifter performing Power Clean, High Pull and Low Pulls.

More weight can be used in a Low Pull than a High Pull, more weigth in a High Pull than a Power Clean.

Variance in the weight and height of the pull elicits a defferent training effect.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I meant that it's not easy to distinguish what constitutes a "failed" swing (as evidenced by this very discussion), and so it's hard to talk about swings in terms of RM.

Determining 1 RM Kettlebell Swing

I am not sure how it could be determined.

if I say 32 kg is my two-armed swing 10RM, does it mean that I literally couldn't do eleven swings with that weight, or that the eleventh swing would be less powerful,

Decreased Power Output

This was addressed in a previous post, abo ve.

As the Repetition Increase in a movement, Power Decreases.

In other works, less Power Output is generated each repetition. After approximately 3 repetitions, Power drops.

Velocity Based Training

Dr. Daniel Baker is one of the leading reaseracher in this area.

As per Baker, once Power Output drop approximately 15% in a Power Movement, it negates the development of Power Development.

 

[Steve Freides]

Just to ruffle some feathers:

This doesn't ruffle my feathers.

This is a very interesting and divisive discussion

I don't find this discussion divisive, and I hope most of you don't as well.

Alec Enkiri - the title is provocative but what he does seems fine to me. What Rif does also seems fine to me.

Let's make a difference between people doing heavy swings by choice and what we recommend for most people, most of the time - those are necessarily different things. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. There isn't only one way to swing a kettlebell any more than there's only one way to use a barbell. Choose the right tool, and the right application of that tool, for the job at hand. For general strength and conditioning, kettlebell swings with a moderate weight for sets of 5-10 and volumes of around 100 per day. For more experienced athletes with a specific purpose or desire, swinging heavy is a fine choice that doesn't negate or make "wrong" the way we recommend most people perform the swing most of the time.

-S-