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ryanrspeed

Level 4 Valued Member
First, @Pavel Macek and @Justyna Mackova Thank You for the great course! Having your video instruction to go along with @Pavel 's book is already and tremendously helpful tool.

I do have a question concerning using the Talk Test vs a Heart Rate Monitor.

I organically reached the Timed goal, but only with a 24kg KB, a couple years ago then life circumstances and (non training) injuries derailed progression. I decided a couple months ago (before the announcement of your course) it was time to refocus and start moving towards Timed Simple. I bought, and more importantly read, the 2nd version of Simple & Sinister and started digging through StrongFirst articles on S&S. In doing so I came across @Al Ciampa 's article: Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst
Since coming from an Endurance background I was familiar with the MAF method and curious to try it out with my S&S training. Which I did immediately, but with a small caveats.

According to the article we use the base of 180 - Age + 5 to get our max HR "allowed" in our training session. Let's call it SF-MAF. This makes my SF-MAF 136 BPM. But according to Phil Maffetone there are a couple other factors to consider such as recovering from illness or injury, regular medication, etc that can also effect your MAF (article: The MAF 180 Formula: Heart-rate monitoring for real aerobic training. ). So according to this adjusted formula I would have a MAF of 121 not 131, making my SF-MAF 126, not 136.

After a few training sessions I was able to find where I needed to get my HR down to before starting another set of Swings and all was well except I disliked, as in VERY MUCH disliked, having to keep an eye on my HR. It felt reminiscent of keeping an eye on the clock - it takes me "out of my session". So after watching the course I decided to use the Talk Test while keeping track of HR with a monitor, just not staring at it.

After analyzing a couple weeks of just using the Talk Test while performing my sessions I found that my max HR would hit right around 136, sometimes a couple beats above but never drastic. But it hasn't come anywhere near my 'strict' SF-MAF prescription of 126.

So I guess my question is do you feel keeping with the Talk Test is detrimental to mitochondrial development since I am spiking my HR out of the 'strict' MAF zone?

Thanks for any insight, and again thank you for the great course!
 

ClaudeR

Level 6 Valued Member
The thinking has moved on since that article was posted, in where a HRM is a useful tool to look for trends over a long period but is more or less disregarded for individual training sessions (not speaking for @Al Ciampa of course, but that is what has transpired from years of experience). It is but a single instrument in a whole orchestra of things

IF you are familiar with what the talk test actually feels like (i.e longer recovery than most people think), and if you are attuned to what your body is telling you (sleep, mood, recovery, etc) there is no need for a HRM other than to see changes in HR response over a long time

@Harald Motz and @Anna C will be able to provide a lot of insight on this also, but generally I think your body will tell you more than a single number
 

ClaudeR

Level 6 Valued Member
BTW Phil Maffetone set up his formula in the context of (very) long steady state endurance training, which is distinctly different from what A+A or S&S are prescribing
As @Al Ciampa sais, know your context
 

Bauer

Level 7 Valued Member
First, @Pavel Macek and @Justyna Mackova Thank You for the great course! Having your video instruction to go along with @Pavel 's book is already and tremendously helpful tool.

I do have a question concerning using the Talk Test vs a Heart Rate Monitor.

I organically reached the Timed goal, but only with a 24kg KB, a couple years ago then life circumstances and (non training) injuries derailed progression. I decided a couple months ago (before the announcement of your course) it was time to refocus and start moving towards Timed Simple. I bought, and more importantly read, the 2nd version of Simple & Sinister and started digging through StrongFirst articles on S&S. In doing so I came across @Al Ciampa 's article: Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst
Since coming from an Endurance background I was familiar with the MAF method and curious to try it out with my S&S training. Which I did immediately, but with a small caveats.

According to the article we use the base of 180 - Age + 5 to get our max HR "allowed" in our training session. Let's call it SF-MAF. This makes my SF-MAF 136 BPM. But according to Phil Maffetone there are a couple other factors to consider such as recovering from illness or injury, regular medication, etc that can also effect your MAF (article: The MAF 180 Formula: Heart-rate monitoring for real aerobic training. ). So according to this adjusted formula I would have a MAF of 121 not 131, making my SF-MAF 126, not 136.

After a few training sessions I was able to find where I needed to get my HR down to before starting another set of Swings and all was well except I disliked, as in VERY MUCH disliked, having to keep an eye on my HR. It felt reminiscent of keeping an eye on the clock - it takes me "out of my session". So after watching the course I decided to use the Talk Test while keeping track of HR with a monitor, just not staring at it.

After analyzing a couple weeks of just using the Talk Test while performing my sessions I found that my max HR would hit right around 136, sometimes a couple beats above but never drastic. But it hasn't come anywhere near my 'strict' SF-MAF prescription of 126.

So I guess my question is do you feel keeping with the Talk Test is detrimental to mitochondrial development since I am spiking my HR out of the 'strict' MAF zone?

Thanks for any insight, and again thank you for the great course!
Don't worry much about it and use the talk test. You can use HR to make sure you are recovered enough... for example, starting each set when HR has returned to 110.
 

ryanrspeed

Level 4 Valued Member
BTW Phil Maffetone set up his formula in the context of (very) long steady state endurance training, which is distinctly different from what A+A or S&S are prescribing
As @Al Ciampa sais, know your context
@ClaudeR - I completely agree that context is everything. Can you point me in the direction on info / articles concerning the difference in steady state aerobic training vs A+A / S&S?
 

ryanrspeed

Level 4 Valued Member
Don't worry much about it and use the talk test. You can use HR to make sure you are recovered enough... for example, starting each set when HR has returned to 110.
@Bauer that’s pretty much the route I’m rolling with but figured I might as well start using this forum and it’s resources to solidify some thought processes.
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
First, @Pavel Macek and @Justyna Mackova Thank You for the great course! Having your video instruction to go along with @Pavel 's book is already and tremendously helpful tool.

I do have a question concerning using the Talk Test vs a Heart Rate Monitor.

I organically reached the Timed goal, but only with a 24kg KB, a couple years ago then life circumstances and (non training) injuries derailed progression. I decided a couple months ago (before the announcement of your course) it was time to refocus and start moving towards Timed Simple. I bought, and more importantly read, the 2nd version of Simple & Sinister and started digging through StrongFirst articles on S&S. In doing so I came across @Al Ciampa 's article: Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst
Since coming from an Endurance background I was familiar with the MAF method and curious to try it out with my S&S training. Which I did immediately, but with a small caveats.

According to the article we use the base of 180 - Age + 5 to get our max HR "allowed" in our training session. Let's call it SF-MAF. This makes my SF-MAF 136 BPM. But according to Phil Maffetone there are a couple other factors to consider such as recovering from illness or injury, regular medication, etc that can also effect your MAF (article: The MAF 180 Formula: Heart-rate monitoring for real aerobic training. ). So according to this adjusted formula I would have a MAF of 121 not 131, making my SF-MAF 126, not 136.

After a few training sessions I was able to find where I needed to get my HR down to before starting another set of Swings and all was well except I disliked, as in VERY MUCH disliked, having to keep an eye on my HR. It felt reminiscent of keeping an eye on the clock - it takes me "out of my session". So after watching the course I decided to use the Talk Test while keeping track of HR with a monitor, just not staring at it.

After analyzing a couple weeks of just using the Talk Test while performing my sessions I found that my max HR would hit right around 136, sometimes a couple beats above but never drastic. But it hasn't come anywhere near my 'strict' SF-MAF prescription of 126.

So I guess my question is do you feel keeping with the Talk Test is detrimental to mitochondrial development since I am spiking my HR out of the 'strict' MAF zone?

Thanks for any insight, and again thank you for the great course!
Let hr spike where it spikes. I used the hr for years to guide my starting point. Usually 100 - 110 bpm. It never failed me and never felt distracted.

Since a few weeks I do my timeless sessions purely by feel without watching the monitor while it is recording. So far my starting point around 110bpm seems pretty stable and pretty much looks like guided by the monitor.

The following is an enjoyable 'undistracted' formula: do a set of swings, park the bell, make a mark for the completed set walk away from the bells leisurely, come back to them pause a moment to recognize your breathing/urgency for breath, set up and do the next set/repeat. Enjoy your recorded hr chart in the aftermath. Works like a charm.
 
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